THE EX-[ELDERS] FILES: EYES WIDE SHUT

by AMNESIAN 59 Replies latest jw friends

Music Mouth

, but *some* men seem to have a heavier dose of that trait.
Yes. More than *some* other men. Less than *some* other women.
Good lord. Peoples pride over their sexuality and race amazes me. Two things no one has, nor had, any control over.
teejay

I think Amazing has a certain gift for writing although he is often unnecessarily verbose, detracting from the power of the message. Maybe he couldn't help it or maybe (as I suspect) it is a measure of his vanity -- he likes to hear himself write, likes the sound they make in his own mind.
I wish I could have stomached more of his "justice series" but I believe that the passage of time as well as his ever-constant need for approval and praise rendered them a little hard to believe... especially the 'savior' role he played in them. By continually milking the readers of his posts for compliments and attaboys, I think it only normal to question the truth of much of what he had to say.
It was okay and you were cool if you agreed with him and told him how much you agreed with him and how great his posts were. The response was very different if you had an opposing view. Disagreeing with him was the same as disagreeing with All Truth. This experience with AMNESIAN has made that pretty clear. As well his thin skin.
He is also very condescending and does little to hide his superior attitude. It's okay to think you're smart, or be well-read and educated ... whatever... but you don't have to beat people over the head with it all the time.
I hope you're reading this, Amazing.
If you're even half the man you worked hard and long to convince everyone you were, you'd realize that you've got work to do, Sir. If I were you and had any self-respect at all, I'd get busy and fulfill my obligations. But that's me.
GinnyTosken

Amnesian,
I made my first foray into the wide ol' worldly world when I was 17. I left home to go to college.
During the first semester, I felt like a kid in a candy store. Until then some of the strongest influences in my life had hammered me with the idea that to think freely at all was to be elitist and rebellious. At college I could dip my toe into the dangerous realms of art history, philosophy, and Shakespeare's bawdy puns.
I made straight A's the first semester, but became depressed during the second semester. I’m rather ashamed to admit this now, but I went to college largely because a boy I loved, Tom, was going there, too. My conception of college life was largely formed by black-and-white movies and books from the 1950's. I imagined that once I was far from the punitive influence of my father, Tom and I would date, go steady, and I might even get pinned.
Things didn't turn out as I had imagined. He, too, was enamored of freedom and didn't want to be confined to dating just me. I didn't take this well, to say the least. I saw myself as a martyr. I had sacrificed my family, my beliefs, and even my hope of everlasting life to be with Tom. My beliefs filtered my perceptions, and when I realized that I wasn't Tom's only love, I saw only ugliness, emptiness, and futility in my life at college. I fell into a black hole of depression.
By February, I wanted to die. Actually, that’s not exactly true. My pain was very real, but a part of me wanted the drama of Greta Garbo playing a lingering Camille. I wanted to be Ralphie from A Christmas Story, returning home blind after terrible suffering from parental soap poisoning, yet long-suffering and generous towards those who had caused him such pain. Tom's older sister and I were close, and she had been writing to me. That winter my letters were full of sadness, disappointment, complaints, and whining. She listened patiently for a long while, but finally wrote back in a very firm tone, "Surely you are existential enough to know that you are responsible for your own shitty feelings." What a slap in the face! I didn't even know what "existential" meant, but I knew why I was unhappy--it was all Tom's fault!
I whined some more to my roommate. I told her I wanted to die. Her patience, too, was thin. "If you really want to die, why don't you do something about it? Just do it or check yourself into a mental hospital." I chose to go to the hospital, and she drove me there.
I expected that the therapist and I would talk about me, me, me, and my pitiful life. She did, but she was also concerned with the burden of guilt I had loaded on the backs of my friends--mostly Tom. How dare she suggest I unburden them! They deserved every ounce of guilt they carried. "You must release them from this guilt," she said. I didn't understand and didn't want to release anyone, but I'd always been one to obey authority figures. Tom joined us for one of our sessions, and I accepted responsibility for my own choices and took some of the guilt back upon myself. Well, at least I said that I did.
It took many years before I fully understood what Tom's sister had said, "You are responsible for your own shitty feelings." I am also responsible for my own choices.
What has any of this to do with your post? In “To: Borgfree / Elder Culpability, ” Lee Elder posted:
I think we have to respect the choices that other elders make. In the end, we all accept the natural consequences of our choices. I see nothing to gain by second guessing others in this regard and hope that others don't judge me for way the I handled my situation. I did the best that I could, as I'm sure you did too.
From http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17880&site=3
You responded by saying:
Boy, LE, do I ever disagree with this.
This kind of reasoning can only be justified when one's choices affect only him as the chooser. That's not the case with elders. These men stay in the business of judging others---their hearts, their motives, their intentions, no less!--- and affecting the very course of our entire lives but are not to be judged by us? Rubbish!
The fault in your argument is that no one can make a choice that affects only himself as the chooser. Even if I am a hermit living up in the mountains alone, my choices will affect others. With every breath I breathe in, I have used up oxygen and emitted carbon dioxide. If I build a fire, eat food, or take a shit, I have affected the environment and have affected others. If I am a conscientious person, I will consider the effects my choices will have on others when I decide what to do. At the same time, I must distinguish between what matters lie within my control, within my influence, within my concern, and those matters over which I have no influence at all. Stephen Covey discusses this principle in his Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Alcoholics Anonymous recognizes this principle in their serenity prayer:
GOD, grant me the serenity
to accept the things
I cannot change,
Courage to change the
things I can, and the
wisdom to know the difference.
Each of us makes choices that affect others. According to your reasoning, each of us deserves to be judged by the same standards of “justice” you outline for elders.
I understand that you have been trying to make a distinction between elders who “know” and those who do not. As I mentioned in the other thread, there are many nuances of knowing and awareness, which is why I posted this link:
http://jbe.la.psu.edu/6/harvey991.htm
If you want to have an objective discussion of elders who “know,” please define your term. In what exact sense do you mean “to know”?
Since so much of this discussion has bled into considering the actions of all elders, I am ignoring your distinction and will consider all elders, not just those who “know.”

Of what do you accuse elders?
These men stay in the business of judging others---their hearts, their motives, their intentions, no less!
If you’ve been following the “Farewell to All” thread, you will see that many of us are guilty of the business of judging hearts, motives, and intentions. You have done it yourself when you pretend to know Amazing’s motivation and intent and condemn his behavior. If elders are guilty, so are you.
You may think, “What I’ve done isn’t that serious. I have just expressed my opinion forcefully. Amazing may choose to accept my criticism or shrug it off. I’m just one person giving my opinion on a discussion board. It’s not like I’m holding a gun to Amazing’s head or anything. I’ve told him what I believe to be true, and he can choose either to accept my criticism and grow from the experience, or he can choose to ignore my opinion completely.”
But what if Amazing doesn’t have a strong sense of self? What if he doesn’t completely trust himself and his own perceptions? What if he believes that his heart can be treacherous and wonders if he is deceiving himself? Not only have you expressed your opinions of Amazing, but several other posters have backed you up. Seeker agreed 100% with your last post and this one. I’ve always known Seeker to try to make fair and unbiased decisions. His opinion would influence me. JanH is known to value logic. He totally agrees with what you say about elder culpability. That opinion would influence me, too.
Amazing weighs all this and decides that so many people can’t be wrong—he must be the sort of man you describe, even if he can’t see it himself. Amazing becomes depressed and eventually commits suicide. Would his suicide be 100% your fault, Amnesian?
Each of us has the ability to make choices. Each of us chooses based on our perceptions, interpretations, beliefs, and whatever experience we’ve had up to that moment. Our beliefs will filter our perceptions. Our perceptions and beliefs will determine our interpretations. Each of us will make the best choice we can with the knowledge we have at that moment.
Your opinions will have power over Amazing only if he gives them power. You have control over what you say and how you say it. You do not have control over what Amazing will think or how Amazing will react. You may cause him harm; you may cause him good. Each of us can cite strong influences in our life. Unless we are children, we are responsible for our own choices.
How do elders get the power to judge others? Followers choose to give them power. What influences them to do this? Beliefs. How do they learn these beliefs? From friends, family, or someone who knocks on their door. Followers make a choice to subject themselves to the power of the Watchtower Society. In the case of children, their parents make this choice for them. Who is ultimately to blame? The person who makes the choice. “Who is more foolish—the fool or the fool who follows him?”
It is as unfair to try to judge elders collectively as it is to try to judge Jehovah’s Witnesses collectively. Each person has his own motives for remaining one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and such things can’t be judged by what appears on the surface. Even during the Nuremberg Trials, specific charges were leveled against individuals. Each individual had to answer for his own conduct.
Each elder made choices based on what he knew and understood at the time. An elder may have sat on 100 judicial committees without having once cast a vote towards disfellowshipping someone. The elder can only control his own behavior; he cannot control that of the two other elders, nor can he control whether a person chooses to subject himself to a decision by a judicial committee. Only the elder himself will have enough information about his perceptions, interpretations, motivations, knowledge, and understanding to fairly assess his behavior in each personal interaction that occurred during his time as an elder. I dare not judge anyone except myself.
Accepting the responsibility of being an elder may increase the likelihood that you will influence others, but this is not certain. An elder in a small congregation may influence fewer people than a very persuasive publisher. I also think it is important to remember that elders are only one factor among many that influence people to remain Jehovah’s Witnesses. Our experiences vary, and each of us will rate the factors differently. Here’s how I rate the influences in my life as a jw:
Father 15%
Mother 5%
Other Family 5%
JW friends 15%
Elders 5%
Circuit Overseers 0%
District Overseers 0%

JW literature (who is responsible?) 20%
Bethelites
Writing Committee
Governing Body
Those who pay for literature and make donations
My desire to please 5%
My desire for simple, easy answers 5%
My desire for immortal life in utopia 5%
My lack of critical thinking skills 15%
My innocence, naiveté, and gullibility 5%
None of us can know how much influence we will have on others. Sometimes just one word, phrase, or event at the right time can alter the course of our life. Painful events can sometimes help us grow and understand. Seeker and JanH cannot control how much influence I allow them to have in my life; only I can.
Whether inside the organization or out, each person may examine his own heart, motivations, intents, and behavior. Anyone who tries to dictate to another person what is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral, has crossed a personal boundary. In my opinion, none of us has the right to decide these things for anyone else. We may express our opinions. If we feel we are right, we may risk affecting the life of someone else by trying to influence him. If we are trying to influence with integrity, we will try to help the person make better choices by deciding freely for himself. We will present information in a fair and unbiased way. We will not try to coerce with fear, guilt, or shame.
Your post is beautifully written but it frightens me for the same reasons that political speeches and propaganda scare me. It sounds very good and fires up the crowd, but the ideas at the core are bad. I have to wonder if you’re doing yet another experiment to determine how folks are affected by persuasive language.
You condemn Amazing for being condescending and chauvinistic, but are just as condescending towards Amazing and chauvinistic towards men. Since you interpreted Amazing’s posts as dishing out this sort of stuff, perhaps you felt it fair to dish it back.
When Amazing creates new threads, that is interpreted to mean that he want to see his name up in lights. What does it mean when you do it?
When I see you use phrases like “wicked elders” and “trusting innocents,” my bullshit detector goes on red alert. Life is not that simple, and I know of no adult who is completely wicked or completely innocent. Somerset Maugham wrote:
I had not yet learned how contradictory is human nature; I did not know how much pose there is in the sincere, how much baseness in the noble, or how much goodness in the reprobate.
You say that your intent is to be a friend to Amazing and help him “re-evaluate some things about yourself and your view and treatment of women.” When I read your post, I get the impression that you want to shame and humiliate Amazing and are grossly violating his personal boundaries:
Consider: How is it that at the first sign of a significant flare-up that has you at center stage, your concern is not to remain here---tough it out in the interest of continuing to try to “help” these many hurting, confused, abused, and broken ones who come here daily, some hourly, looking for whatever balm there may be for their bruised and battered souls and psyches---but to save yourself from the discomfort of a little verbal sparring?
Sure, bail if you want, but in doing so, concede what we both will know to be the real reason. That you have no conscientious concern for what may become of innocent folks when they are abandoned by “good elders.” What you care about is yourself and the fact that your widdle feewings were hurt for a comparatively scant few moments---compared to the lifetime of agony some are enduring. You leave these folks because it no longer satisfies you and your post-WTS quest for Ps.

Shame on you for ever having come in here promoting such a blatantly fraudulent claim over these past few weeks.
Consider: Amnesian withdraws for as long as she wishes before she deigns to return to a debate. When she does, she charmingly brushes aside those ideas she does not wish to address in her post. “Such antics would bore AMNESIAN and AMNESIAN does not wish to bore, unnecessarily, or be bored, at all.” Amnesian is allowed to choose to save herself ‘from the discomfort of a little verbal sparring” and may choose when she wishes to reply. Amazing is given a false dilemma—he may choose to be a man of conscience who stays to bind up the broken-hearted or he may selfishly bail and abandon the innocent folks here on the discussion board. Amazing’s “widdle feewings” are unimportant “compared to the lifetime of agony some are enduring.” Never mind that if Amazing doesn’t put on his own oxygen mask first, he can be of no help to anyone else anyway.
Oh, dear. Does this mean that because I am a regular presence on this discussion board that I should feel guilty while I am away during my working weekends? Dare I take a vacation? Two weekends ago, a poster was suicidal, and I was not here to help. Should I feel guilty? Should people rely on me to get their needs met?
I am sure that Amazing has his faults. All humans do. If you want to take Amazing to task for his personal behavior, do so. I wish you would do it in a calm, caring, and reasonable way. I cringe to see you trying to load him up with this excessive burden of guilt and toxic shame and consider your behavior cruel and inhumane.
Ray Franz felt a moral obligation to speak out. He chose when and how he did it. Please allow Amazing to make the same choice.
This is from Healing the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw:
Toxic Shame
No responsibility; lack of power; failure of choice; incapacity
Healthy Shame
Limited power and responsibility; power comes by knowing limits
In an earlier post, you said that, The average JW has no power. Zero. None.
If the average jw has no power, it is because the average jw has chosen to give it away. Each adult is ultimately responsible for his own choices. No one else is culpable.
Ginny
waiting

Great post, Ginny.
I think one reason I'm agreeing with parts/posts by several different people - on both sides of this issue - is because this issue of elders is absolutely not black/white. Even within the confines of establishing responsibility, there are areas of grayness which can only be answered by each person within their own hearts & minds - and only if they're absolutely honest with themselves (which most people aren't).
It's not a voting kind of thing.
Thanks again for this viewpoint.
waiting
Julie

Hi Xena,
You quoted:
quote:
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Yeah, it is almost as bad as seven longish posts making promises, allegations and chock full of inflammatory statements as well as healthy doses of self-pity. Perhaps there is an epidemic of excessiveness going around
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funny I don't remember tyydyy posting anything like that...course he does spend a lot of time on the computer...but I thought he was just looking at porn...go figure..
ROFL...So do you go *looking* for some little thing to take issue with and or twist into an *issue*??? Or were your *pretending* like you didn't get the insinuation? Did you not get the insinuation??
I do not think Amnesian's posts/amount of words to be anything near Amazing's excessivness in evading the actual debate. Better now? Nice and streamlined for you?? Sheesh!!!
Here's another item for you and tiedie to mull over, there are some who have sat at Amazing's feet just thankful for his every wrod of wisdom he deigned to share with us over time. Then there are some of us who took offense with him early on. I once took the time to call him on some of his political bullshit talk and was quickly suroounded by the ol' ex-elder homie gang. One can only wonder how many other women would have liked to call Amaing on a thing or two in the past but lord knows they have seen what happens when a girl tries *that* haven't they????? So, in your searching for that non-existent meaning in some things, here's a meaning for you to find that *does* exist....notice how many real strong opinions there are out there not so favorable to Amazing? Notice how many women applauded that first big-time rebuttal post Amnesian wrote Amazing??? Now think for a moment....do you think all these very strong, passionate feelings suddenly occured with Amnesian's post?? Or, could there have been plenty of women who have been pretty sick of Amazing's obvious arrogance and chauvanistic attitude that they finally saw a bit of a champion of their own stand up to this Elder-like-fellow after all this time????? Believe me, such passionate reactions do not occur with the appearance of a post honey, you may want to look into the concept of Fermentation.
If you want to look for hidden meanings and/or little things to take issue with or perhaps help you to understand some of the dynamics of the interactions on the board Xena, maybe you should start looking in the right places (cause take my word for it there are plenty, you just miss all the significant ones, *hint* they aren't put downs to your boyfriend or remarks about people's weight--not the meaningful ones at least).
Just a friendly suggestion,
Julie
waiting

Hello Julie,
Amazing and I have disagreed before - and we agreed to disagree. Period. It was on fighting in war and we didn't fight - nor did he get his male hackles in an uproar, nor did he insult me - or I him.
In fact, Tina and I have disgreed before - and we agreed to disagree. Period. Of course, it was a while back......but we did it.
Just thought I'd throw the fact out that there are many times people don't fight on this forum, nor do they deteriorate into a vain temper tantrums and/or insults. They just disagree and continue on to other things.
As for Amnesian and Amazing, I recall there were strong opinions in support/against both sides of the argument, and all the subsequent threads started by both sides. And some posters agreed with parts of both sides of the argument - like I do.
To take it down to black/white, for/against, kind of thought doesn't do the subject justice - as speaking about elders/WTBTS/r&f is a complicated issue.
waiting
Julie

Hi Waiting,
I am going to include my paragraph here again for you, the significant one--fixing typos and tell me where you see black and white thinking:
Here's another item for you and tiedie to mull over, there are some who have sat at Amazing's feet just thankful for his every word of wisdom he deigned to share with us over time. Then there are some of us who took offense with him early on. I once took the time to call him on some of his political bullshit talk and was quickly surounded by the ol' ex-elder homie gang. One can only wonder how many other women would have liked to call Amazing on a thing or two in the past but lord knows they have seen what happens when a girl tries *that* haven't they????? So, in your searching for that non-existent meaning in some things, here's a meaning for you to find that *does* exist....notice how many real strong opinions there are out there not so favorable to Amazing? Notice how many women applauded that first big-time rebuttal post Amnesian wrote Amazing??? Now think for a moment....do you think all these very strong, passionate feelings suddenly occured with Amnesian's post?? Or, could there have been plenty of women who have been pretty sick of Amazing's obvious arrogance and chauvanistic attitude that they finally saw a bit of a champion of their own stand up to this Elder-like-fellow after all this time????? Believe me, such passionate reactions do not occur with the appearance of a post honey, you may want to look into the concept of Fermentation.
-------------------------------------------
There is nothing black and white here, on the contrary it is below the surface deduction sort of thing. It touches on imagined oppression (readers), unimagined intimidation(support wolf-packs) and fermenting ill feelings (old ones) of which I list above toward Amazing. There is no right or wrong here just tactics (packs) and self-imposed limitations (readers). I thought it would be helpful for Amazing to realize this post of Amnesian's was no revelation, more like an emancipation. If Amazing really does want to accomplish good and come off less than arrogant and chauvanistic I should think it would be a sincere Friend who might point this out to him instead of someone he's done battle with. Until he realizes what he has long been doing to alienate many he will never be able to accomplish what it is he claims he wants which is to be a good and helpful friend to any who could use it. Just my opinion. Oh and I thought it helpful in directing Xena how to look for serious underlying things instead of the petty shit she digs up from time to time and seems to feel rather victorious over.
Take care all, won't be around much and I wish you all well--perhaps I'll send a link to Amazon.com if I ever get the project of my life published--
Warm wishes,
Julie, who would like to point out to all if they want to brawl/hug/cry/laugh over any words I've written today (or any day), my e-mail's open--all are welcome
teejay

Ginny,
I have an idea of why you made such a lengthy post. I'd like to offer you one bit of advice: "Long" does not necessarily equal "Good."
I made my first foray into the wide ol' worldly world when I was 17. I left home to go to college.
Interesting that you would start your "response" by demonstrating how radically different your early life experience is from that of most JWs. Was that on purpose? Just as the course your life has taken is different from that of the average Witness, it's quite possible that your perspective is also.
... no one can make a choice that affects only himself as the chooser. Even if I am a hermit living up in the mountains alone,
So, when elders make choices in a congregation they impact the lives of an entire roomful of people, including families. More tragically, when elders make decisions over the lives of individuals (in the case of judicial committees), those decisions directly affect the life and emotional and mental health of said individuals, yes? If that one has children, parents, or other family or friends who are JWs, their lives are also affected by the decision made by the jc.
... If I am a conscientious person, I will consider the effects my choices will have on others when I decide what to do.
And why do you consider thusly? Because you KNOW that what YOU DO may likely influence others' thoughts and behavior. This brings up right back to AMNESIAN's thesis. Thanks, Ginny!
...[since] this discussion has bled into considering the actions of all elders, I am ignoring your distinction and will consider all elders, not just those who "know."
Making any sort of commentary on the words of an author that you purposely ignore is a huge waste of time, don't you think? In other words, you have taken the dialog on a "Ginny-tangent" and your subsequent words should be viewed in that context-i.e. irrelevant. No matter... I'll give you my thoughts on some of your irrelevant commentary anyway.
But what if Amazing doesn't have a strong sense of self? What if he doesn't completely trust himself and his own perceptions? What if he believes that his heart can be treacherous and wonders if he is deceiving himself? Seeker agreed 100% with your last post ... His opinion would influence me. JanH ... totally agrees with you ... That opinion would influence me, too.
That tends to support AMNESIAN's argument... that the elders, because of their influence over the r/f, have the power to do much harm to others who look up to them
Amazing weighs all this and decides that so many people can't be wrong... he becomes depressed and commits suicide. Would his suicide be 100% your fault, Amnesian?
Interesting question.
Recently, the account of an abuse victim was posted here and all hell broke loose as a direct result. Three of our posters, one in particular, had 'problems' with the story. The victim was said to be devastated. Charges commenced to fly. Threads were deleted. One poster's account was de-activated and another threatened to leave if the first one's account was re-activated. Now was ALL of that laid at the feet of ONE POSTERS harsh words? You bet.
And this is just a discussion board. Imagine what guilt might be applied to an individual in a real life "important" situation wherein someone looses his or her life.
Your opinions will have power over Amazing only if he gives them power. You have control over what you say and how you say it. You do not have control over what Amazing will think or how Amazing will react. You may cause him harm; you may cause him good. Each of us can cite strong influences in our life. Unless we are children, we are responsible for our own choices.
Were you drinking when you wrote this? You say we have power over others-we may cause them harm or good-while also saying that others are responsible for their own actions. Do we have influence over others or not?
How do elders get the power to judge others? Followers choose to give them power. What influences them to do this? Beliefs. How do they learn these beliefs? From friends, family,
A belief in God and that he inspired the bible is also a component to the power that JWs confer on elders. The bible either tells or implies that believers should obey those taking the lead among them. In the WTS, those are the elders.
It is as unfair to try to judge elders collectively ... during the Nuremberg Trials, specific charges were leveled against individuals. Each individual had to answer for his own conduct.
Each elder made choices based on what he knew and understood at the time. An elder may have sat on 100 judicial committees without having once cast a vote towards disfellowshipping someone.
As I pointed out earlier, you decided to ignore AMNESIAN's original thesis and began to comment on an imaginary one she never made. She never judged anyone and certainly not all elders (even all those who "know") collectively. That being said, since all the defendants at Nuremberg received various penalties, it follows that degrees of guilt was at the bottom of the jury's opinion against them. Without meaning to, you support AMNESIAN's thesis. Good analogy.
None of us can know how much influence we will have on others. Sometimes just one word, phrase, or event at the right time can alter the course of our life.
Again, you're confusing me... what point exactly are you trying to make with this post?-that we *do* or we *don't* have influence over others?
You condemn Amazing for being condescending and chauvinistic, but are just as condescending towards Amazing and chauvinistic towards men.
Since dictionary definitions serve you so well, I thought I'd do you the honor respective of a word you hurled at AMNESIAN:
Condemn 1. To express strong disapproval of: condemned the needless waste of food. 2. To pronounce judgment against; sentence. 3. To judge or declare to be unfit for use or consumption
Be honest, if you can. Did AMNESIAN condemn Amazing?
Is AMNESIAN condescending or stating facts as she sees them? I find it very hypocritical of you, in light of your and my recent dialog, to even ATTEMPT to chastise one for stating the facts AS THEY SEE THEM.
Putting aside your shameless hypocrisy, in the exact same sentence wherein you denounce her for calling Amazing chauvinistic you turn right around and call HER chauvinistic because that's how YOU see it. Did YOU realize you did that? Are you the only one entitled to share your viewpoint of how you see things or do the rest of us have that privilege also?
When Amazing creates new threads, that is interpreted to mean that he want to see his name up in lights. What does it mean when you do it?
Surely you don't compare the starting of the one thread every ten days that AMNESIAN started to the starting of seven threads, all addressing the exact same issue being discussed on an already existing eighth thread, that Amazing started, do you?
When I see you use phrases like "wicked elders" and "trusting innocents," my bullshit detector goes on red alert. Life is not that simple, and I know of no adult who is completely wicked or completely innocent.
Are you suggesting that there are no wicked elders and no trusting innocents? Again, as you are addressing fictional comments she never made, I'll let this "bullshit detector" comment stand for what it is. I must say that it's nice to know that you have a bullshit detector though, Ginny. Very nice.
You say that your intent is to be a friend to Amazing and help him "re-evaluate some things about yourself and your view and treatment of women." When I read your post, I get the impression that you want to shame and humiliate Amazing and are grossly violating his personal boundaries:
You then quote AMNESIAN's chastisement of Amazing's leaving the board, suggesting he did so to "save yourself from the discomfort of a little verbal sparring." You compare that to AMNESIAN leaving before returning the debate.
Did you not see that Amazing said he was LEAVING? When did AMNESIAN do the same. When did she say that she would answer within a giving period of time?
Oh, dear. Does this mean that because I am a regular presence on this discussion board that I should feel guilty while I am away during my working weekends? Dare I take a vacation? Two weekends ago, a poster was suicidal, and I was not here to help. Should I feel guilty? Should people rely on me to get their needs met?
I'm certain that this has some bearing on either AMNESIAN or Amazing but damned if I know how.
I am sure that Amazing has his faults. All humans do. If you want to take Amazing to task for his personal behavior, do so. I wish you would do it in a calm, caring, and reasonable way. I cringe to see you trying to load him up with this excessive burden of guilt and toxic shame and consider your behavior cruel and inhumane.
I thought she DID "take Amazing to task for his personal behavior in (using your words) "a calm, caring, and reasonable way." Calling it an attempt on her part to "load him up with this excessive burden of guilt and toxic shame" is ridiculous. Toxic shame? You've got to stop trying to paint people with the colors that the doctors use in the books you're reading. I mean it's good that you're reading, but the things you are discovering don't apply to everyone.
And you consider AMNESIAN's behavior "cruel and inhumane"? Now, we wouldn't call that a judgment, would we?
Ray Franz felt a moral obligation to speak out. He chose when and how he did it. Please allow Amazing to make the same choice.
Comparing Amazing to Ray is a leap of monumental proportions. Mentioning the two of them in the same sentence and in the same context is an absurdity that defies beyond I'm stunned that even you would even think such a thing. Secondly, Amazing notified the board that he was leaving, remember. He's gone. I can't speak for you, but I can't help but see a notable difference.
SixofNine

Mentioning the two of them in the same sentence and in the same context is an absurdity that defies beyond I'm stunned that even you would even think such a thing.
No it isn't, and no you aren't.
waiting

To the absent Julie,
Take care all, won't be around much and I wish you all well--perhaps I'll send a link to Amazon.com if I ever get the project of my life published--
Warm wishes,
Julie, who would like to point out to all if they want to brawl/hug/cry/laugh over any words I've written today (or any day), my e-mail's open--all are welcome - julie
And the post is started this way:
Hi Waiting,
I am going to include my paragraph here again for you, the significant one--fixing typos and tell me where you see black and white thinking: - julie
Since Julie is absent, by her own words, it would be useless to show her the rabid use of black/white and for/against wording that oozes in her post to xena. The obvious insults against Amazing show for/against thought, as does her use of trying to pit women against men.....targeting Amazing for most of the woes of jw women everywhere.
Or, could there have been plenty of women who have been pretty sick of Amazing's obvious arrogance and chauvanistic attitude that they finally saw a bit of a champion of their own stand up to this Elder-like-fellow after all this time????? - julie
As for my post to the-then-present-Julie......none of the points I brought up were addressed.....so why -in the world - would I waste my time conversing with now-is-absent-except-for-e-mail-Julie?
Besides that, I didn't qualify my statement as referring to only black/white thinking. I included for/against mentality, which permeates the-now-absent-Julie's entire post, and has little to do with the subject matter which started this ungodly long discussion.
For a refresher on what the premise was to this discussion, please refer to Ginny's post above. Ginny's post is a marvelous example of remaining on the subject and not damning either poster.
waiting

THE EX-[ELDERS] FILES: EYES WIDE SHUT

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