by AMNESIAN 59 Replies latest jw friends


    (Don’t let the title scare or piss you off. Stay with it to the end---even if it takes you a while---and then, if you wish, by all means get pissed as you wanna be. -AMNESIAN)

    (Final edit, Thursday, January 10, 2002, 11:00 a.m. PST, USA)

    It was seemingly a lifetime ago, on JWD, I accepted what I took at the time to be a genuine invitation by Brother Amazing, extended in “To: Borgfree / Elder Culpability”, to all persons, viewpoints and opinions---not inconceivable, being presented on a public board and all---to discuss the subject of whether and, if so, to what degree “current JW Elders who are no longer JWs in their hearts,” are culpable for the extreme damage done to the “average non-elder JW publisher.” Or, he followed, “is it possible that these types of Elders can do good…”?

    Until circumstances and the ensuing discussion moved me to compose and post “AMAZING – Exposing Elders,” which, to put mildly, set off a much-anticipated firestorm ---anticipated by me, anyway, though certainly not in quite the way I’d imagined---, I’d held a certain impression about the man with whom I was about to step onto center stage regarding his assertions on this emotional and highly-volatile topic.

    Prior to my entering this discussion, having mostly lurked, I’d read, among the many other prolific and highly-regarded male and female posters here, most of Amazing’s many, many, many posts. Although I’d wondered at some of what he posted and disagreed with still other, I had, nonetheless, come to generally respect the online persona he obviously worked hard to cultivate and maintain. Among other qualities and attributes he seemed to demonstrate and clearly prided himself in were his compassion, his sense of justice---devoted a lengthy “series” so titled, no less---, his ability and eagerness to dispense all manner of advice, insight, clarification, correction, encouragement and assurance in the soothing and comforting language and tones of a reasonable, conciliatory, paternally-wise and all-knowing, well-intentioned elder-(pun intended!) statesman of this community. Sometimes it came across a bit cloyingly for my tastes, but, always struggling to balance trust with the noisy cynic within, I, for the most part, rejected niggling suspicions and accepted Amazing’s as being the sincere stuff of a former JW elder who’d recovered appreciably from his WTS-informed stretch as a male JW and a JW elder regarding women and assorted gender issues.

    It probably comes as no surprise that I am in a somewhat different place today from where I was before all this began. That is not to say an angry, vindictive, or spiteful place. And certainly not in a place needing or desiring bloodletting or bashing.

    But it’s a decidedly different place, nonetheless.

    For those who might wish to suggest that my further comments here constitute piling on, as it were, permit me to remind that, although quite the vigorous discussion has raged since my “AMAZING – Exposing Elders,” post, it was my last post on the topic, up ‘til now. I have preferred to sit back, read and consider what others have been good enough to contribute---pro, con, betwixt---thoughtful and, some, less so. Even though Amazing’s final comment on the topic was to announce his farewell to JWD---insofar as posting goes, at least---I know that he is reading this and feel that even he does not think it unfair that I not be begrudged my own final comment. Afterall, even his departure did not come before he managed to leave behind no fewer than seven, that’s 7, separate posts in response, reaction, rebuttal, swipe, whatever, to my, in his oft-repeated words, “12 loooong pages” single post.

    But, if you do begrudge me my final word, so be it. When I started this I declared that I can take whatever bashing may come and I can. Regardless anyone’s opinion(s) of me or what I’ve said or will say, rest assured there will be no “Farewell to All: Love, Kissy, Winky, Huggy, Email me, AMNESIAN.”

    I did not compose “AMAZING – Exposing Elders,” to solicit Academy votes nor is this epilogue, if you will, for the purpose of thanking or skewering the Academy.

    So don’t go planning any victory parades at my expense cuz I ain’t goin’ nowhere. You good folks offer too much from which I benefit.

    (That’s not to be confused with the stuff that makes me go …”huh?”.)

    A very brief review is appropriate to chart just how I got from where I once was regarding our brother Amazing to where I am today. I’m afraid a little cut and paste is unavoidable to accomplish this, lest I be accused of fudging the facts. But, so as to keep it to a bare minimum and not burden unnecessarily with the tedious---though fascinating--- play-by-play, the detailed course of this discussion, if you are so inclined, is mapped at the conclusion of this post, hyperlink by bloody hyperlink.

    Another note: I have neither the interest nor feel in any way impelled to obsessively address the volumes that have been posted in response to “AMAZING – Exposing Elders” with which I either strongly agree or disagree. That is not to deny that some, many of the points made ---both those in agreement and support and those dissenting and taking exception--- were, imo, quite reasoned and well worth my time to have considered. But I feel my foundational post adequately represents my fundamentally unchanged position on this topic and think you entitled to your follow-on without the need for any “thank you for your brilliant, I-almost-envied-the-way-you-said-what-I-meant-so-much-better-than-I-said-it points in support of my brilliant points” pandering or any “You are one bold-faced, lying, stupid fatherf*&king idiot for not seeing that mine is the only valid position in this” recalcitrant posturing from me.

    Such antics would bore AMNESIAN and AMNESIAN does not wish to bore, unnecessarily, or be bored, at all. She desires it known that she is grateful for having been very-recently released from a 30 years-to-life sentence to hard boredom and will do nothing that might jeopardize the terms of her parole.

    Instead, I have quite unabashedly cherry-picked those nuggets that most intrigued me---stimulated my juices even--- , those to which I choose to address myself, and have left the rest of the chewy morsels on the table, fully appreciated.
    Briefly, in previous episodes:

    Borgfree, imo, aptly assessed men who serve as elders for the WTS:
    “I know there are some serving as elders etc. who may be decent people apart from the WT. However, the people they hurt by enforcing the WT doctrines are just as hurt as if done by an unloving elder. The innocent children who refuse blood by listening to their parents AND the backing of the GOOD elders are just as dead. As long as these GOOD elders preach and enforce the terrible doctrines of the WT, then they are just as responsible for those wrongs as a bad elder.”

    To which Amazing respectfully responded, variously and in part:
    “You raise a very good and serious issue here, and one that has troubled me at times….What about Elders who stay in? Are they really culpable, fitting the profile you mention? …Are thay also guilty of harm because they choose to stay in the organization for serious personal reasons? Are they able to mitigate harm, or even avoid causing harm if they can find ways to steer around certain harmful teachings of the Society? …I question: Because I am not sure how to judge current JW Elders who are no longer JWs in their hearts. Must they exit the organization no matter what in order to maintain a sense of integrity? Or is it possible that these types of Elders can do good, avoid harm, and find some way to balance out their continued active involvement? Is this a ‘Black and White’ issue, or perhaps an area that allows shades of gray?”

    Further, Amazing lured participants with the seemingly open and inclusive invitation:
    “What do you and others think?”

    Lee Elder, one of the first to respond, wrote:

    “Why judge individuals at all? From a Christian perspective, that role belongs to Jesus. From a legal perspective that role belongs to a jury.”
    To which Amazing so very reverently responded:
    “Hi Lee Elder: Appreciate your comments. I did not mean 'judge' in the religoius or civil sense, as though one would risk being 'judgmental.' I used the term 'judge' more loosely such as one might say, 'assess', 'evaluate', 'understand', 'view', 'determine', and other synonyms, although I do include judgement, such as using good judgment - and judging, in and of itself, is not entirely bad.

    Your sentiments about some JW Elders remaining in the organization, and continuing their service as Elders, is similar to my own. I do not believe that all Elders who disagree with the organization but stray for personal reasons should be rigidly categorized as some posters suggest. I was merely opening up the topic because it is one that at times seems to influence the flavor of certain posters comments. Thanks.”

    All very civilized, courtly, gentlemanly, even, up to this point.

    In response to a comment by Lee Elder, this is where I naively submitted my debut contribution on the topic:

    “Elders who remain such for the WTS, no matter how well-intentioned and decent they perceive themselves to be, are as guilty of perpetuating egregious abuse and inflicting monstrous damage on others--- no matter how thoughtfully they claim to execute such--- as the wicked elder who feels no need absolution for his rotteness.”
    Obviously more descriptive, arguably more forceful in language, but nothing at all, in substance, different from Borgfree’s initial, succinct observation.

    So it was most unexpected when Amazing propelled the following torpedo in my direction:

    “Have you ever been a JW Elder? The men who are appointed by the Society are no different than the average JW Publisher. They are appointed because they are adults, active in the organization at levels which meet Watch Tower rules. JW Elders are simply believers who are caught up in the same system as every other JW...If you were ever a JW, you are just as culpable and guilty as those you ardently condemn. Why? You supported the same system, preached the same message, misled the public at the door, and gave financial suport to religious crooks --- so your judgment comes back on your own head. We are all pups from the same bitch. The point of my initial post is how we draw the line, and Lee Elder stated one way that many have drawn the line. I believe he presented fair sentiments in general.” (his bold)
    Whoa! Goodgollymissmolley.


    Now, no matter what your opinion on this topic, on Brother Amazing, on me, or on Pinky and the Brain, you have to concede that this response suffers a somewhat less respectful and delicately-seasoned tone and language than that Amazing usually accords his mostly-adoring female respondents and occasionally-disagreeing male respondents. I found this both disappointing and disconcerting in the extreme in view of the many posts of his I’d read previously on JWD and H20 that seemed to carry no such acrimony.

    Ah well, I figured) I could easily be over-analyzing and determined I’d just proceed to counter this unexpected aggression, unbowed, unintimidated, and with my own emphatic, considered opinion---the most aggressive inarguably:

    “Every single man who’s ever served on a judicial committee---of any kind--- has inflicted harm on others. Period.”
    What the hey, in for a penny, in for a pound.

    Long story short (okay, short-er---happy?), instead of continuing our dialogue in the existing thread, the one he had broken out from a previous one ---and unwaveringly true to his familiar strategy of debate, ---Brother Amazing called me out in yet another brand new thread, “Amnesian / Expose AVERAGE JWs,” and proceeded to upbraid me in a manner entitled the aristocracy in dealing with an uppity commoner.

    Or, more appropriately, in the manner of a proud, powerful, privileged, perked overseer needing to “adjust a Jezebel” to protect the congregation of God’s people against her impudence and failure to “tremble at glorious one.”

    Remove the wicked [wo]man from among yourselves!

    Well, this was my interpretation of events up to here, anyway.

    So, it was at this point I decided to give full reign to the cynic within and conduct a little experiment on Brother Amazing, without his being any the wiser, of course. Nothing elaborate or meticulously orchestrated---merely a hazy, loosely-defined ploy, if you will, to see just what kind of “elder” he really is today, whether he is, in fact, the conquering hero of his “Justice Series” or something or someone …else.

    Was he the mostly-recovered, fully-enlightened former JW elder he perceived and portrayed himself to be or might the current Brother Amazing still have about as much spackling and patching to do as any of the rest of us---especially former overseers?

    Had he grown from his JW elder view and treatment of women or, so to speak, did he merely talk the talk, but stumble in the walk? What happens today when a virtually unknown “JWD sister” saunters into the “JWD ‘KH’” and aggressively confronts and disagrees with one of its very prominent “elders?”

    Which would prevail---our Brother Amazing of “Justice Series” and endless JWD comment and commentary or the Brother Amazing who held the same view of women and their viewpoints as the WTS and the rest of its hierarchical male constabulary? Or, to be fair, someone in between?

    Ironically, it was while sitting in JWs’ Service Meetings during my 30 year hard boredom prison sentence that I was taught that people are more persuaded by the sermons they see than the ones they hear.

    Plus---come closer so I can whisper this--- since Brother Amazing had sometimes reminded me of stodgy, stuffed-shirts unwilling to laugh at themselves---ever reminiscent of the insufferably prissy little generals the WTS dispatches to the field, traveling men who compounded my repressed-JW woman misery and contributed to making so many days of my last 30 years a resounding B-O-R-E---that I decided to also have a bit of fun with him in the process.

    Not very sportsman-like you say? I say, who asked you, anyway? I checked and saw nothing in the rules prohibiting it and, besides, I ain’t no man, sports or otherwise.

    Call it getting some of my own back for all the years I had to display “the quiet and mild spirit” that just so happens ---practical joke on me!---Jehovah's miscount left me without one and He had no extras.

    So now it became Amazing’s image to burnish or tarnish. He could prove himself to be a standup “hawkaw” or “larc” or other exemplary males around here who have conducted themselves in truly manly fashion when set upon by this chick-on-a-soapbox hogging the mic, or, even, he could further confirm himself to be the amazing “Amazing” of several installments of the “Justice Series”.

    Then there's the other ugly option: he could prove himself to be just another WTS-like official meting out its brand of “justice" and “discipline” to the non-submissive Jezzie who has abdicated “her place.”

    His call.

    I proceeded, therefore, to thoughtfully assemble my experiment and post it under the intentionally-provocative title “AMAZING – Exposing Elders” .

    And here, sports fans, is where---as the proverbial saying goes---, all hell broke loose.

    So, here’s to you, my friend, Amazing, the results of my little wager with myself about you. Hopefully, they'll cause you to re-evaluate some things about yourself and your view and treatment of women. Should you doubt my capacity to serve you as a friend after all we've been through together---and I assume you do since you neglected to thank me in your farewell post---, allow me to reason with you from the scriptures:

    The wounds inflicted by a lover are faithful, but the kisses of a hater are things to be entreated. Wounds from a friend are better than many kisses from an enemy.

    Proverbs 27:6, Tyndale New Living Translation

    And if you resent too terribly taking counsel from a girl, why not, at least, during this self-imposed <winky> sabbatical <winkywinky> of yours from JWD, try to figure out where the heck you might've misplaced your sense of humor. Assuming, of course, its absence does not owe to an unfortunate congenital defect, in which case you should get your name onto a transplant list--- toot sweet.


    You opened your “counsel” with "AMNESIAN’S AMNESIA!"

    Your “unedited” post to Mulan on 12/17, just a little over week ago, is very fascinating. I have “bolded” and "Underlined"those points that seem to stand in stark contrast to your current rhetoric directed at me and ex-JW Elders in general:

    Any attempt to edit your post at this time will be a sign of dishonesty. You posted to Mulan: Re: Did Crisis of Conscience damage you? Dec 17, 2001 12:55:

    Otoh, although I believe that Ray was conscience/duty-bound to write CoC, I don't think that it need be read by all JWs, a great number of whom are probably no better or worse off being Witnesses and would probably despair beyond ability to recover if stripped of "The Truth" by being forced to face the truth. –AMNESIAN”

    You openly state that not all JWs can bear the real truth. You yourself harbored serious “major” doubts for 10 long years! Yet, you somehow manage to deny a man who might be an Elder this same latitude! You make no allowance for those Elders, who themselves hold major doubts, any latitude for also feeling as you yourself felt, and who themselves believe that not all JWs should have their world shaken apart. Many of these Elders have not taken 10 long years to leave the organization as you did. Some have stayed for a variety of short-term purposes, some of which have been to be of service to those trying to effect reform, such as Lee Elder. Whether their efforts prove effective is another matter.

    Now, to be perfectly honest, Amazing, I don’t buy that you even believe your tortured reasoning that my very clear statements here are in any way at odds with my position on elders’ culpability. What I believe is that in your fevered frenzy to scrounge something you hoped useful to discredit me, you neglected to pay enough attention to exactly what I said here.

    Either that or even “12 loooong” pages were still insufficient to inform you.

    If, however, reading comprehension is truly your handicap, I am nothing if not sensitive to the special needs of the disadvantaged.

    So, I’ll refresh:

    Excerpted from “AMAZING – Exposing Elders,” my exact words were:

    ”I’m not talking about men who merely stay in the organization, but not as elders. There is a difference between men who remain elders indefinitely and those who remain knowing they have a definite time in mind to resign while carrying out a plan as SL and LE were.

    “Once an elder decides to become a ‘Silentlambs’ or ‘Lee Elder,’ he recognizes that that will be life-altering, his last kamikaze mission as an elder and likely a JW. It also means that he’s got the hormones most elders lack, no matter how conscientious and honorable they perceive themselves to be. They don’t remain elders with some vague notion of making things better for the relative few they happen to personally know. They remain for a specific time with a specific plan in the works that can help many. These are not the men one considers to be remaining as elders.

    “Big difference.

    “You see, if every good and conscientious man who decided to remain an elder did so only until he pulled off his one big covert operation that will likely reap huge benefits for lots more JWs worldwide than merely a couple of troubled teen-agers and one elderly and ill sister or two in his own congregation, I’d be in their cheering section. You and I both know that is not only rarely the case, it is virtually never the case, which is why “Silentlambs” and “Lee Elder” are receiving well-deserved backslaps.”

    In “Amazing: Exposing Elders,” I also stated: ”I’ve expressed no opinion about men---or women---who stay in the organization for whatever reasons they have a right to without needing to justify to me or anyone else, except maybe God. My don’t-get has to do with men who claim they are somehow “helping” other Witnesses by continuing to destroy lives by holding office as elders”


    “Once appointed and having served for some length of time, many,---no, most---, remain elders long after they learn that the real “cause” is anything but “serving” their brothers (unless one means “serve” in the Twilight Zone’s “To Serve Man” kinda way), but to serve their corporate masters and their interests. Why? Because they enjoy the P[rizes]s: P R I V I L E G E. P O W E R. P R E S T I G E. P E R K S…”


    Once again, for you and others still on line waiting to get hooked on phonics, my position and argument are regarding elders who K-N-O-W---they don’t suspect, they don’t doubt, they don’t wonder, they don’t question, imagine, believe, think, divine or guess---, they have reached the point of K-N-O-W-I-N-G, by whatever means, that they are not serving their brothers, as they’d first believed and desired, but that they are serving the WT Enterprise. There are many, many men who fall into this category---elders who lie to themselves and others as to their true motives for not resigning in conscientious objection. They just keep flogging, albeit, possibly, with fewer or less forceful strokes, but still thereby colluding in and sanctioning the continued abuse by other elders and the organization.

    For those in the bleachers, <megaphone in “on” position> I AM TALKING ABOUT ELDERS WHO K-N-O-W AND YET REMAIN IN OFFICE, CLAIMING THEY ARE H-E-L-P-I-N-G THE PUBLISHERS when their real reason is, as I stated before, “They are scared spitless at the prospect of losing all this bounty and suffering the recrimination of being thought “spiritually weak” or worse (which any man is considered if not holding an office.)”

    They stay for their “P”s.

    How in the name of heaven, hell and all that's in between does this conflict with my belief also that any publishers who are shiny, happy Witnesses under the control of the WTS who would be devastated by the revelations of a Ray Franz are entitled to and should be allowed to be left alone snuggled in their comfy illusion? I don’t believe a person who is not hungry should be force-fed CoC or anything else for which he has no appetite, and, perhaps, no stomach. Only those publishers who do doubt, like I did, need and deserve the liberating confirmation that only elders who know the truth and conscientiously resign---and write tell-all exposés, even--- can provide.

    IF AN ELDER IS STILL A TRUE BELIEVER (which can only be convincingly claimed by fresh-faced greenhorns or certificated idiots) OR ONLY DOUBTS WITHOUT SUBSTANTIATING EVIDENCE, he is still culpable for the egregious damage he does in service to his office and the Society, but cannot be strung up over the flame at the same low height as should be done the cowardly reprobate who knows the truth about the WTS leadership and claims to stay to help the brothers, to mitigate their injury.

    In this whacked outfit, both men and women have convincing justifications for remaining, nominally, at least, in the organization, easily faking it as a publisher---not the least of which is trying to avoid the emotional devastation of expulsion and shunning. There is no emotionally-devastating impact as a result of not holding a corporate office. That is, unless one is a P-loving little prick prince who gets off on clipboards and form letters.

    I will nevereverneverever concede otherwise.

    Well, there might, just might, be one circumstance under which I might make the one-time exception for you, Brother Amazing. The terms of my willingness to reconsider this entire topic appear at the conclusion of this post.

    Posted to your AMNESIAN’S AMNESIA! “counsel” were a few comments, other than your own, that I wish to address:

    …Before I stepped aside I tried very hard to ‘divulge’ to the innocent sheep in the congregation, particularly my Book Study, some of that ‘secret crap’ to which, we as elders, were privy. Blank stares and confused looks and that’s as far as it went. As a matter of fact, some (all women) quit coming to my study and went to another because of hearing this vulgar ‘secret crap’. The wife of a ministerial servant who served as my assistant was one of those who was repulsed at hearing this ‘secret stuff’. She (and her children) attended a Book Study elsewhere while her husband attended mine. After a while her husband eventually came to see the WTBS in a different light but she never did and she continues to badger him to this day. …

    Some of the sheep of my Book Study went to other elders and told them they were disturbed at the things that I was saying about the Society. As a result I was the one that got ‘skinned and thrown about’. Later some did realize that there were some troubling inconsistencies and would readily admit to it but…they are still in it. They are still attending meetings and they are still going from door to door.

    You leave me with my own blank stare and confused look on this one.

    What exactly was your motive in, as you say, “[trying] very hard to ‘divulge’ to the innocent sheep in the congregation”?

    Did you do it to have them fall at your feet in obeisance as though an angel had been sent from Jehovah to liberate them, you, a latter-day Savior in the form of one of their own? Did you do it in anticipation of grateful and triumphant jubilation? Did you entertain some hope that Time Magazine would name you its “Book Study Conductor of the Year?”

    Or did you “try very hard to ‘divulge’” because you realized you had a moral obligation, irrespective the reaction to be anticipated from the recipients? If you don’t take my point, perhaps the following says it better than I:

    “When persons … are being mislead by those they consider their friends, is it an unkindness to warn them? They may prefer not to believe the warning. They may even resent it. But does that free one from the moral responsibility to give that warning?”

    The Watchtower, January 15, 1974

    “What this book contains is written out of a sense of obligation to people whom I sincerely love. In all good conscience I can say that its aim is to help and not to hurt. If some of what is presented is painful to read, it was also painful to write…What those reading this information will do with it is, of course, their own decision. At least it will have been said, and a moral responsibility will have been met.

    “We have the option,…, of surrounding our conscience with a sort of cocoon of complacency, passively 'going along,' shielding our inner feelings from whatever might disturb them. When issues arise, rather than take a stand we can in effect say, 'I’ll just sit this one out; others may be affected---even hurt---but I am not.' Some spend their whole lives in a 'morally sitting' posture. But, when all is said and done, and when life finally draws near its close, it would seem that the one who can say ’At least I stood for something’ must feel greater satisfaction than the one who rarely stood for anything.”

    Raymond Franz, “Price of Conscience,” Crisis of Conscience

    It should be the individual’s choice as to how he wishes to respond or not respond to the warning. There is no choice whether to grant or to withhold the warning with the justification that those warned would fail to recognize and appreciate its value. What appalling WT-like arrogance ---“we know better what is best for you than you can know for yourself. We will decide what information you can handle.”

    So you use the reaction of some to justify your argument that it is not morally irreprehensible to not sound, or, at least, "hint" the warning? I'll bet you employed cleverer than that threadbare excuse when you were attempting to duck what was claimed your "moral obligation" to “preach the good news.”

    The fact is that, honestly, had I been trapped in your book study and heard such curious “hints” while watching you continue to polish your merit badges and enjoy your elder perks and prizes, I might’ve myself, even with my doubts, thought you either a fool, a rabble-rouser, or a just plain nutjob. Anything but a man of conscience trying to “help” me. A man of conscience resigns his office and then, perhaps, “tries to divulge” or “hints” as to why he has done so.

    IOW, he puts his “P”s where his mouth is. Or, perhaps, he puts his peas in his mouth.

    Okay, never mind. Digressing, digressing…


    Returning to my force-feeding analogy: You cannot and, imo, should not try to force-feed a person who is not hungry. I am not suggesting that this is what you were doing with the members of the book study you conducted. I am merely stating that when you wish to fulfill your moral obligation, you don’t shovel food indiscriminately down people’s throats. You spread the buffet, perhaps as you did with the book study group, and allow those who are hungry and want to partake to do so. Those who take offense at your “spread” react as should have been expected. They aren’t hungry---in fact, their countenance may be fat and shiny with sated contentment--- and they resent even the buffet approach. Some even up and move so they don’t have to see or smell the food; they complain to any who’ll listen about your audacity.

    Fine, it’s still their choice---their right!--- to decline, not yours to not offer, at least not if you are claiming to act out of personal integrity and conscience and not out of mere ego.

    Others may not realize they are hungry until they start to sample the cuisine you serve. It may give them an appetite for future such offerings, if not outright hunger for it. The point is, though, that whether they decide to bail right away, later, or never, you have fulfilled your moral obligation to them.

    Once again, the choice is theirs, not yours. And once you fulfill your obligation---which, I still insist, includes resigning---, the onus has been transferred to the individual publisher. Your culpability has been vacated.

    (Don't tell me that one's long years of osmosing while napping long-winded and spiraling, pointless WT illustrations offers no benefits in one's post-cult life, even if only in one's online rantings - )

    And finally on this subject, how do “good” elders know but that it is they, along with the apostles, who fulfill
    2 Thessalonians 2:6-8? --

    And you know what is holding [the man of lawlessness] back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed…

    In response to my “Maybe it would help me if you sl-o-w-l-y explained to me how you, as an elder, were as mislead as the ‘average non-elder JW publisher’ once you had access to elder ‘shit’ like that itemized above that the “average non-elder JW publisher” never even knows exists?”

    …the further comment was made:

    You have access to this information. You posted some of it here.

    If I’d had any knowledge of such abuses, I would’ve rolled long before my showdown with HQ that precipitated my final departure. The “secret shit” I itemized in “AMAZING – Exposing Elders” was not “shit” I knew before coming onto the Internet---and I was an elder’s wife for over 25 years.

    Keep your eye on the ball here.

    The “secret shit” I blasted elders for knowing and keeping secret was that which I learned once I’d quit the Ws and came onto the Internet in search of just what it is the Society is so terrified to have us discover. It is crimes former elders have published online once they’d made their own break. Other of the “secret shit” was posted by men who have the nerve to do so while still serving the Party as overseers.

    Oh, and “shit,”---profanity some apparently were offended by in my earlier post--- for the drowsy, I lifted from Amazing’s terminology of choice in order to maintain continuity in our discussion---that is, before he went back and scoured out such potty mouth expressions from his post, "To: Amnesian / Expose AVERAGE JWs”. I’ll resist hurling at him the words he spewed at me: “Any attempt to edit your post at this time will be a sign of dishonesty.”

    LOL! Must be the privilege of the overseer vs. the underclass.


    "I know that you are passionate. You’re angry as well and so are a lot of us here. There’s nothing wrong in being angry. The inherent danger that lies embedded in this volatile emotion is that it can become indiscriminate. Pointed in the right direction and kept at a level that we can control, however, makes it a valuable and powerful weapon for us. It fuels our resolve and underscores our indignation at inequities. Sometimes that which provokes this powerful emotion within us is out of our reach and we are wont to turn on the closest representation (at least in our minds) of that source and use it as a whipping boy. It will temporarily appease the anger but it has a tendency to return with a vengeance."

    You still insisting, are you, that “Amazing: Exposing Elders” flowed from the depths of my virulent, unbridled A-N-G-E-R?

    What a lovely corsage of greenhouse orchids you fellas make.

    “...kept at a level that we can control”? ... “fuels our resolve and underscores our indignation blah, blah, blah?” “..wont to turn on the closest blahyada, blahyada?”

    Vincent H. Price! The WTS allowed you to commit public talks?

    And they wonder at the decline in meeting attendance in the developed world? I’ll bet, like Brother Amazing, you were another one of those elders who was flattered by his rapt, glassy-eyed “not-complaining, lapping up” JW audience.

    Hold up, my brother.

    How ‘bout you save all this patronizing blarney for Alan, Farkel, or MadApostate ---on one of their tears.
    Or for the Broadway musical. Honeychil’, these ain’t even riot-sized rocks I’m chunkin’. Should my A-N-G-E-R ever rise to the level of all this jabber of yours, you can be sure I won’t be wastin’ it ‘round here on no unworthy Internet discussion board. You’ll be able to track it on “America’s Most Wanted” and follow the subsequent proceedings on “CourtTV.”


    Amazing’s Amnesian and Tina - Invitation to Make Amends ... excerpted:

    Now that a few days has passed, giving us each some time to think, maybe this is a good time to have some constructive discussion to see if we can at least try to better understand one another, and make amends if possible. I hope you are open to that.

    I hope that I will see a response from both of you, and more than that, I hope that I have conveyed genuine and sincere comments in an effort to make things right between us

    Sounds sincere enough, on its face, though I could’ve gladly gone the rest of my life without the majestic tenor of the Heavenly Father’s entreaty to his wayward, stiff-necked people: “Come, now, YOU people, and let us set matters straight between us,” says Jehovah. “Though the sins of YOU people should prove to be as scarlet, they will be made white just like snow; though they should be red like crimson cloth, they will become even like wool. If YOU people show willingness and do listen, the good of the land YOU will eat. But if YOU people refuse and are actually rebellious, with a sword YOU will be eaten up; for the very mouth of Jehovah has spoken [it].” (Isaiah 1:18-20)

    You slay me, brother. Or, I suspect, you would if you could.

    As it turned out, neither Tina nor I rushed the door to accept your “invitation.” I cannot speak for Tina, but, as for me, I was still conducting my little experiment which called for only carefully following the interesting discussion(s) and not re-entering it prematurely. You were to read my silence in whatever manner you chose.

    And, my, how you chose. But I’m getting beside…that is, ahead of, myself.

    To be perfectly honest, even had I been mildly inclined to take you up on your offer, there was my puzzlement as to its coming so close on the heels of “Tina: You are a bold-faced liar,” “Tina, …I begin this post by calling you a liar, and I end by calling you a liar. – Amazing” and, finally, “Tina: I called you a bold faced liar because you make silly ass allegations without one shred of evidence or the decency to make any specific point. Why? Because you cannot. Why? because you are a boldfaced liar. I not only dare to called you a liar, you are a pure liar, through and through. You have not the guts, the intelligence, or the integrity to show otherwise. – Amazing”

    Who could rightly deny me, as the WT would frame it, “a measure of skepticism” given those distracting lead-ins? Try as I might, I failed to recall any such language of “spiritual adjustment” on your part in the “Justice Series.” Mind you, I don’t necessarily have a problem with such strong language, just not from one such as yourself, one who enjoys the status of a kind of “spiritual counselor extraordinaire” on JWD. There are others who make no pretensions when they desire there be no misunderstanding regarding their message---and I respect them for their lack of hypocrisy in honestly presenting who they are and what they wish to convey. It’s just that, well, Amazing, you have always seemed to esteem as of superior value your self-styled, shall we say, more civilized velvet glove approach as contrasted with that of bare-knuckled brutality.

    By now, I’d really begun confusing all over myself.

    Your impatience with your “invitees” became increasingly manifest:

    No response so far from Tina Amnesian, just silence.Amazing

    When neither of your invitees responds to your “invitation” within the timeframe you apparently feel would evidence “fruit that befits repentance,” i.e., jump when you say jump, your “invitation” turns downright pissy. Excerpted from “Amnesian & Tina - Your on thanks to Julie” (the very title itself, assuming you meant “You Owe Thanks to Julie,” conveying how precious you view your postings):

    The reason I decided to end it by making amends is that I felt that the whole discussion went far out on a limb away from my original intention to have objective discussion of Elder culpability. I was caught off guard and blindsided by what felt like blind militant tongue lashing in the name of noble passion ... and allegations against me that were wholly untrue, unfair, and in some ways bold faced lies. I began to feel that I was nothing but cannon fodder for a much different agenda ... and I just didn't want to play the game.

    Ah, thou giveth and yet taketh away.

    So, which exactly was it, Brother Amazing?

    Was ”Amnesian and Tina - Invitation to Make Amends” extended out of your sincere desire, as you claimed, “to have some constructive discussion to see if we can at least try to better understand one another, and make amends if possible”?

    Or, is the truth what you turn around and post in “Amnesian & Tina - Your on thanks to Julie”?

    Come on, pick a door .

    In “’Apology’ to Julie,” in further reference to your “invitation,” I continued to stumble across more evidence of your lack of sincerity and your unraveling self-ascribed humility:

    And, of course, not a word from Amnesian. Why? She does not care about any meaningful exchanges. I was just her whipping boy for the week.

    I may be all the things they accuse me of ... but then again, I can also see when I am dealing with people who have their heads so far up their ass they need a glass-lined stomach to see their way around. It is painfully obvious that I am wasting my time on this ... no matter what I do, which tells me that my first instincts were right ...

    Hon’, how could I have mistook your invite when ya sweettalks me like that?

    In one breath you say “I am truly trying hard here to be respectful, and treat you as you want” and in the next you make fun of some kind of colo-rectal-bowel-stomach lining thing I got going on.

    Are you by any chance struggling with multiple personality disorder?


    In your “Farewell to All,” the comment was made by someone other than yourself:

    In Amnesian's second reply in that first thread, she started using terms like you, all you elders, everyone who served as an elder is guilty, when you went up on the platform puffing your chest...this of course would be viewed as a personal comment against amazing (or really any male who happened to serve in that capacity who might be reading the thread).

    “You” in this statement is employed as the familiar second-person, impersonal collective pronoun commonly understood when addressing or referring to a group and its actions and characteristics as a whole and to no one in particular. As I tried to make clear more than once that I don’t know Amazing personally---only what he reveals about himself, knowingly or not, in his posts---, how could anyone have understood my statement otherwise, and, more surprisingly, as a personal attack??? Most assuredly taunting, manifestly scathing to boot, but nothing I said could be considered personally insulting unless I was speaking from specific, as opposed to generic, acquaintance and experience with Amazing---and I was not. My jibing him can only be taken by him to be personal if he knows he fits, in a specific way, the generic elder I profiled.

    My take is that, on these anonymous discussion boards, this issue of one’s taking personal offense at remarks made by someone who does not know him/her personally speaks less to the character of the offender than to what the offended, perhaps, knows about him-/herself and does not wish to acknowledge or disclose. Just a thought. My statements regarding former and current elders can only apply to those who fit the profile and cannot apply to those who do not. Simple as that. Each knows for himself whether he does or does not fit the profile. Again, an impersonal, collective pronoun is not intended to address any individual and his individual circumstances.

    Or were you never on the business end of a KH bludgeoning from the podium that employed the same device in “encouraging” its listeners in the collective to privately, individually assess themselves and, if the boot fit, zip it up?

    If not, perhaps, instead, you were cast in the role of the assailant in my little illustration.

    At any rate, if you wish to infer, from this and my previous post, that I mean to castigate every man who has held the office of overseer, in spite of what I say, that is your right. A couple of the former elders who weighed in chose to dismiss my innumerable and liberal employ of terms such as “some,” “many,” “often,” “may,” “might” and the like in order to see my words as having been intended to apply to all elders. Fine, as long as we’re clear that that is your inference in spite of the words I deliberately chose for the purpose of conveying otherwise.

    With, however, one notable exception.

    The one and only statement I made which unreservedly accuses all elders---past, present, future--- was in my second post, that statement being: Every single man who’s ever served on a judicial committee---of any kind--- has inflicted harm on others.

    I said it, meant it, and mean it. Publishers may have influence on or with, as some of you have accurately pointed out, but it is the elders who have the power over.

    Look hard. See if you can spot the difference.

    To be party to any such degrading, mortifying, demoralizing, process whereby one is required to stand before you while you sit in and pass judgment on his/her everlasting welfare before Jehovah and all the universe, wherein there exists even the remotest possibility of a verdict to df (which any and all JCs can result in) ---with all of the heartless and traumatic implications and consequences such a verdict carries under WTS interpretation and edict--- is to have inflicted harm---devastating, often irreparable harm---that only those with power over, not mere influence on or with, others can.


    Amazing, to put it bluntly, you failed my little “experiment.”


    What does it prove? Perhaps nothing. I still don’t know you---only your posts and, just as my posts are not where I begin and end, it’s safe to assume that yours aren’t either.

    At least you’d better hope not.

    MY PERSONAL TAKE (hope that’s reaching the back rows) is that my little fun with you proves you still don’t think of women in the way you claim to or even think you do or, probably, wish you did. The fact that you cherished and protected and educated daughters probably means you’re a wonderful dad. That, however, does not make you a wonderful man, at least, not in the way you seem to want to be perceived as wonderful.

    Archie Bunker clearly cherished and protected and educated his “li’l ‘goyle’,” Gloria, too, but, lawd’a’mercy, he was not a wonderful man. That’s not to say that Archie didn’t have his endearing qualities, but, still, he was far from wonderful.

    And before you start spitting up again, nothing you’ve said in our little “discussion” causes me to see Archie’s face when I “speak” to you. That’s not what I’m saying. It’s merely the handiest illustration I could grab---which I wouldn’t even have to bother explaining to a man who wasn’t asphyxiating from ego metastasis.

    You carry off admirably the balanced, reasonable, humble brother as long as you’re the one calling the shots: setting the parameters of the meeting---its time, its tone, its agenda, its length, its participants and the degree of latitude they will be allowed ---as you once did as a JW elder---and continue to see it as your role on JWD. You even come across in convincing, sometime even reverent, fashion when rebutting virtually any tenor of dissenting opinion from one of our board brothers.

    But, frankly my dear, you come unglued like a pair of wet Wahlmart sneakers when forced to face the fact that this is no KH and all voices---in their respective tones and perspective---hold sway here. And that, here, male and female voices, i.e., opinions, alike are much like anal orifices---though gender-specific plumbing and accessories obviously differentiate us, our anal orifices do not. A woman’s and a man’s are of equal value and serve the exact same function, assuming both are in working order.

    Exhibit A: In “To: Ex-JW Women - Your Side”, you deigned to look out over the broad expanse of the board, set your sights upon the tired, poor, huddled masses of ex-JW women yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of the teeming WTS cult of domination and abuse. You lifted your lamp beside the golden door and magnanimously made way for these churchless, tempest-tossed sisters now in our midst to pour out their very desolation:

    Ex-JW Women: I, and I assume other ex-JW men, would enjoy hearing your views, opinions, feelings, analysis, and conclusions about your JW experience. How did you feel about your husband, fathers, brothers, Elders, MS's, and other women in the organizations? Did you generally feel oppression, and why? How serious was it, and was not all that bad, or even good? - if possible. [:}] Spare no feelings, and please be open and candid as you wish.

    Such sensitive, caring inquiry: "How do you feel…? Did you generally feel oppression…why? How serious was it? Was [it] not all that bad? Or even good?"

    This. Is. Priceless.

    So we have your permission to be as open as we wish and to spare no feelings when you stipulate the time and place and manner of our doing so.

    You’s mighty good to us, Boss.

    And you would enjoy hearing our feelings and conclusions, would you?

    Simply breathtaking in its appalling condescension and sheer hubris.

    My motive in asking?

    Do tell us, oh wise and generous and compassionate overseer. How benevolent of wise King Amazing to give voice to the innermost thoughts and feelings of the palace maidens.

    Primarily to understand your views, feelings, and experiences.

    I’ll bet. If this were true, you would care to “hear” not only what women are saying, but how they are saying it. No, you don’t seem at all motivated by a desire to understand women’s “views, feelings, and experiences.” What you appear to be more motivated by is the desire to convey an impression that you want to understand, thereby garnering the adoring praise of female congregants who still appear to feel they need an elder’s dispensation even to give voice to their honest "views, feelings, and experiences” in this forum. Of course, you are willing to grant your permission, but, their “views, feelings, and experiences” had better align with your own and that of other former elders and your self-sparing illusions. Or they are likely to be counseled that their “views, feelings, and experiences” are ignorant, uninformed, or just plain wrong!

    And they’d better offer such “views, feelings, and experiences” in the melodious, mild-spirited, whispered tones in which God intended women to speak lest they suffer the wrath of Amazing of armies.

    <gangway, gangway…vomitous spewage forthcoming---sorry, watch where you step>

    I might comment with additional questions, or explainations (not intended as justifications) that may help you understand why or how we men may have acted in certain ways …

    You’s too good t’ussen, Boss.

    I look forward to your response. – Amazing

    Sure you did. Once you granted your dispensation and distributed your program outline, you made not a single follow-up appearance in that thread. Did you even bother to ever read all that these precious sisters thoughtfully and emotionally poured out, or were you too preoccupied congratulating yourself for generously affording them their own little back room “coffee clutch” on JWD---while compulsively stalking the board for my response to your S-E-V-E-N diatribes-slash-invitation-slash-apology?

    If you had bothered even once to return, you would likely have seen how swollen with gratitude to you, Elder Amazing, my sisters were, for your sanctioning their precious indulgence:

    Thanks for asking!…Thank you Amazing for asking that question…Just my 2 cents. Thanks for letting me share…Amazing, this is a great topic!…Amazing, great idea…Thanks for starting this thread Amazing…What an excellent topic. It is so healing to be able to say how we really feel and felt…I love this thread…There is something about this topic that usually causes a burning desire for our voice to be heard…Thanks...great thread…Thank you Amazing for starting this thread…This is an excellent thread because so many JW women are oppressed…

    With these kinds of "reviews"---your revealing terminology in ”Apology to Julie” I believe it was---is it any wonder you got a case of the vapors when my appreciation was expressed, let’s say, somewhat less effusively?

    That would be because my take, not surprisingly, is a bit different.

    Permit me to break it down for you, brotha, like a ’69 Datsun in a Tijuana chop shop:

    You no longer speak from behind the authority of the podium at the KH and women are no longer hostages held in your audience with no choice but to give the impression of sitting in quiet rapture, “lapping” whatever concoction you’re ladling if they wish to “earn” G-O-D’s approval.

    We no longer have to check the schedule for time and topic. We can prepare the damn schedule if we wish or ignore it entirely. When we wish to participate in the discussion---and the beauty here is that we don’t even have to do that if we don’t wish and not have to concern ourselves with what some secret committee file may record about us---, we are no longer required to raise our hands to get your attention. We do not have to wait to be acknowledged by you. We don’t even have to wait for a mic---we will speak when we get good and ready and LOUDLY and passionately enough so that there is no mistaking a word or emotion of our point.

    And we don’t have to frame it in the form of a question when we wish to call attention to what we believe to be lies, hypocrisy, and misrepresentations. We can look you directly in your eyes and call it as we see it.

    But, most refreshing, when and if we do choose to speak, we don’t have to parrot some asinine bullsh*t written by intellectual dimwits, published in a grade school primer. We can and will say exactly what we think and feel.

    We can, and some of us will, speak up and let you know if we find your "talk" (i.e., posts) scintillating or mind-numbing, enlightened or medieval, Articulate and Literate or Stymie and Buckwheaty.

    Hell, we can even, proverbially-speaking, rise from our seats, rush the podium and strip you of the mic, if we so desire. And you can do nothing but deal with us as equals who will assess your worthiness to be heard on nothing less than who we assess you to be as a person and not on your corporate medals, badges, rank and serial number.

    And certainly not merely because you are male. (Taking orders from 13 yr olds and wearing paper towels on your head in the presence of some insufferable nitwit who wouldn’t know Ezekiel 38 from Jackson 5---motherofpearl!

    And, there is no everlasting-life contingent reprisal you have at your disposal to “discipline” us with when we don’t please hizmajesty or humbly accept as spirit-directed your “views, feelings, and experiences.”

    Anal orifices, dear brother, anal orifices.

    Now, my personal opinion is that your realization of this “new world order” and what it’s given genesis to being unfurled across JWD’s panorama for any and all to behold---there being not a damn thing you can do to forbid or edit it---, is what really caused your wedgie.

    I don’t buy that your draw’s got tangled because---as your lofty claim went--- you thought you were being denied a “meaningful exchange” or that you even so stridently disagreed with my opinion---again, my opinion was not, insofar as I could tell, substantially different from the one Borgfree expressed in getting this ball rolling. Your didy soiled because you were no longer at the podium “conducting the meeting” and controlling whose “comment” you would take and proceed to commend or “correct.” You no longer had the authority of calling on only the “submissive” women in the audience, those who don’t raise their voices or immodestly expose their “passion”

    Veering to the shoulder here a minute: Reminds me of how reluctant sisters were to even read verbatim from the WT any comment that was even slightly critical of men in general or JW elders in particular. If one dared be so brazen, she could expect one or two of the most insecure of the Kings of Comedy to launch their hands into the air, rushing to discredit her read-word-for-friggin’-word-from-Mind Control Digest comment with a follow-up of their own.

    Talk about theocratic headshit.

    Back onto the highway:

    Brother Amazing, our set-to started a long time ago in a post far, far away. In it you contended that:

    “…there are elders whose insight and involvement, like many other current Elders who post on ex-JW forums, provide help in many ways. Are thay also guilty of harm because they choose to stay in the organization for serious personal reasons? Are they able to mitigate harm, or even avoid causing harm if they can find ways to steer around certain harmful teachings of the Society?”


    “…is it possible that these types of Elders can do good, avoid harm, and find some way to balance out their continued active involvement?”

    Your passionate argument, along with a few others of our former elders on the forum, is that, for conscientious, altruistic, mostly unselfish reasons, more than a few men who are “no longer JWs in their hearts” decide to remain elders in the employ of the WTS.

    You adamantly refute my contention that your reasons were nothing of the kind, but merely for reasons of self-aggrandizement, the P[rizes]s: P R I V I L E G E. P O W E R. P R E S T I G E. P E R K S.

    It’s no secret that, save for a miniscule fraction, I completely reject your claims as preposterously self-serving and disingenuous and am unapologetically unwilling to consider the matter any further than I already have.

    Consider: How is it that at the first sign of a significant flare-up that has you at center stage, your concern is not to remain here---tough it out in the interest of continuing to try to “help” these many hurting, confused, abused, and broken ones who come here daily, some hourly, looking for whatever balm there may be for their bruised and battered souls and psyches---but to save yourself from the discomfort of a little verbal sparring?

    And do you decide to hail farewell because, as you say, you believe your “time and place here have served their purpose?” On what do you claim to base this conclusion? Surely not on the responses to your post that we all know you have read:

    Exhibit B:

    ”But Why? I will really miss your posts”... “Amazing, I will miss you”…”I enjoyed all of your post.” “You write things in a way that keeps the attention of the reader. I will miss that terribly… Your posts are so informative”… “Thanks for your very intelligent answers to many of my concerns… your time…here was much appreciated and enjoyed”… "Thank You Amazing for all the hard work and heartfelt concern you have shown to so many of us over such a long time. I was one of them - from way back in the old H20 days two years ago when posters like you, … helped me to see the Truth about the Trooth. … thank you very much”… “Because its regular contributers like yourself who can often mean the difference between someone starting a happy, new life or continuing to live a sad and dead one. Thank you, again and again.”…

    So let me see if I’ve got this straight: In spite of your having discovered the lies and treachery of the WTS and the extreme damage inflicted on persons and lives as a result of its Pharisaic brand of spirituality and godliness, you continued to hold office for the Brooklyn crime syndicate so that you could “help” make sure that Brother Chesterfield Lights in the Chickenspit Congregation down in Hopeless, Arkansas received public reproof instead of being df’d?

    But you leave here in spite of the thunderous bleating of sick and wounded sheep from all over the globe crying for whatever “help” you can continue to provide them on this forum during their transition.

    Honestly, Amazing, exactly what about this scenario proves your weeks-long argument rather than the very one I’ve been making? Your very abrupt retreat from this forum gives the lie to this argument you been advancing.

    Sure, bail if you want, but in doing so, concede what we both will know to be the real reason. That you have no conscientious concern for what may become of innocent folks when they are abandoned by “good elders.” What you care about is yourself and the fact that your widdle feewings were hurt for a comparatively scant few moments---compared to the lifetime of agony some are enduring. You leave these folks because it no longer satisfies you and your post-WTS quest for Ps.

    Shame on you for ever having come in here promoting such a blatantly fraudulent claim over these past few weeks.

    Or, wait, I’m getting another thought, one regarding a seldom-used “unless” clause…

    Unless, so the clause in fine print reads, you, Brother Amazing, rescind your “Farewell to All” and remain with this forum. My reasoning is elementary. You wish me to buy that there are those of you who remain[ed] elders with the WTS, even though you recognize[d] the devastating and traumatic effects of the organization and its elder arrangement on millions of people worldwide, past and present. Your professed reason being that this was done in order to “provide help” to the fleeced flock of JWs.

    You can still prove me wrong by remaining among these good people, lots of them women to whom you wish us to think you sensitive, who feel they need and benefit from your active presence on this forum. It would be the only convincing evidence you’ve presented to date, as far as this poster is concerned.

    How about it, brother? Real men do eat quiche and humble pie when it serves what you have argued to be a worthy and noble cause---serving others for reasons of personal integrity and conscience.

    So, why not cowboy up, brother, and get your assets back here.

    Brother Amazing and other dear friends, our final scripture text for consideration this evening is taken from the book of the prophet Joel.

    That would be Billy.

    Follow along on our board as the prophet sings:

    You're Only Human (Second Wind)

    You're having a hard time and lately you don't feel so good.
    You're getting a bad reputation in your neighborhood.
    It's all right, it's all right, sometimes that's what it takes.
    You're only human, you're allowed to make your share of mistakes.

    You better believe there will be times in your life when you'll be feeling like a stumbling fool.
    So take it from me you'll learn more from your accidents
    than anything that you could ever learn at school.
    Don't forget your second wind. Sooner or later you'll get your second wind.

    It's not always easy to be living in this world of pain.
    You're gonna be crashing into stone walls again and again.
    It's all right, it's all right, though you feel your heart break.
    You're only human, you're gonna have to deal with heartache.

    Just like a boxer in a title fight, you got to walk in that ring all alone.
    You're not the only one who's made mistakes
    But they're the only thing that you can truly call your own.
    Don't forget your second wind. Wait in that corner until that breeze blows in.

    You've been keeping to yourself these days cause you're thinking everything's gone wrong.
    Sometimes you just want to lay down and die, that emotion can be so strong
    But hold on till that old second wind comes along.

    You probably don't want to hear advice from someone else
    But I wouldn't be telling you if I hadn't been there myself.
    It's all right, it's all right, sometimes that's all it takes.
    We're only human, we're supposed to make mistakes.

    I survived all those long lonely days when it seemed I did not have a friend.
    Cause all I needed was a little faith so I could catch my breath and face the world again.
    Don't forget your second wind, sooner or later you'll feel that momentum kick in.
    Don't forget your second wind, sooner or later you'll feel that momentum kick in.

    Don't forget your second wind, don't forget your second wind...

    Billy Joel


    Mother Chairman…



    ELDERS JUST HERE, and now I'm

    To: Borgfree / Elder Culpability

    To: Amnesian / Expose AVERAGE JWs

    AMAZING – Exposing Elders (re: Expose...:

    “To: Ex-JW Women - Your Side”

    AMNESIAN’S – Amnesia!

    To: Amnesian and Tina - Invitation to Make Amends:

    To: Ginny Toskin - Your Comments

    Justice #22 - Legalism or Mercy? - THE END

    Amnesian & Tina - Your on thanks to Julie


    Apology to Julie

    Farewell to all

  • HoChiMin

    Dear Amneisian,

    I believe all Jehovah's Witnesses past and present members are victims of WT cult training.
    Men are told all their lives that you must strive to be an elder and dispense the WT puke. The only elders that seem to get respect from the higher echelon are the ones with the condescending attitude you so well describe. I also believe that those who remain are helping to perpetuate the WT myth and therefore are doing some harm. The excuse that they may be doing some good has little effect on any one but themselves. Family still in the organization is often a reason used to linger on in power as an elder, but is hollow. Taking a noble stand and resigning their position would send a much more observed stance that something is wrong, especially if it were accomplished in numbers.

    I would be happy to see that day.


  • TweetieBird


    I could only read part of this post as I have to get ready for work. I intend to finish it when I get home.

    What I have read thus far is so true. But, I must interject one thought.

    Concerning elders that KNOW the real truth and remain elders. Years ago when my dad was having doubts and in the process of disassociating, many ELDERS approached him with the same doubts. They wanted to step down, disassociate themselves or quietly walk away but were threatened by their wives that if they did so, they would never see their children again. Many elder's wives get so wrapped up in the P's, that they will virtually do anything to keep that position.

    However, for the elders that are not in that position, I completely agree with you 100%. They are culpable, IMHO.

    HoChiMin also brings out a good point, ALL JW's are victims.

    I look forward to reading the rest of your post.


    "I must stand up in search of the truth, if I don't, I only roll with the flow of the lie and make it stronger.

  • Julie

    Hi Amnesian,

    Glad to see you made it back. Thanks so much for so eloquently expressing much of what I tried to convey. Of course I have been told I haven't the ability to read hearts and minds and that my opinion of Amazing and/or his behavior since your inital "experiment" is likely inaccurate. I too have come away with opinions quite similar to yours on this whole matter.

    While it is true you cannot truly know someone just from words on a discussion board I do contend that you can better see someone for who they are when you have only their words to go on. No charming smiles, no distracting gestures etc. Just plain, naked words and thoughts.

    It is my opinion that you have accurately assessed the whole debacle and Amazing's role in it.

    I look forward with great anticipation reading all the posts that will be filled with excuses and/or "other perceptions" re: Amazing's words. Bottom line, there is no denying what has been revealed. Nor is there any denying that it is rather ugly. But I am sure that there are some working their spin-cycles as I write in order to grant the "benefit of the doubt" or to play the loyal supporter. I can see how some who really lapped up Amazing's words here may feel a bit hoodwinked all over again for having made the same mistake twice (first the WT and then Amazing's Loving Elder-like "guidance"). But then again, there are those who also like to be told what and how to think, regardless of them telling (trying to convince) themselves otherwise.

    When their passions are stirred woe to us who dare stand up and cry "The Emperor has no clothes!!!"

    Julie, who can't read minds but has no reading comprehension problems

  • Pathofthorns

    Absolutely stunning (and really long too.. LOL)

    While I don't personally see the issue as entirely black or white, many of the things you said needed to be said.

    Your "4 P's" I think are dead on, and I think that lies at the root of the problem with most elders. When they are dead sure that the WT is not from God, they should start their exit by giving up their eldership within a reasonable time period.

    Why many fail to do this and hold out until the bitter end is IMO largely due to the "4 P's". They don't want to go back to being just Joe Publisher, they don't want to be excluded from the private meetings or to be able to walk around shuffling their papers or to be able to counsel anyone they please.

    I think it is the desire for the "4 P's" that drive individuals to 'reach out' to be an elder, or if not the case, an individual eventually becomes used to the "4 P's" and that is hard to give up.

    Somewhere along the line, an elder has to sell out in order to keep his "P's". When a person goes against his own ideals, his conscience and what he knows is right, in order to keep his position, then something is very wrong. An elder can always give up his position and still remain a Witness, but something stops most from doing this.

    Humility and integrity are lacking. Just like in life when one becomes accustomed to the same 4 P's, it is hard to give up and go back to being the "common people".

    It is easy for the same arrogant attitudes to carry over to a place like this when people leave the WT. Now and again we all need to be put in our place, and I think it is good to be reminded and to keep re-evaluating ourselves and our attitudes. As long as we don't keep driving someone into the ground though.

    Thanks for leveling the playing field once again. Enjoyed it all, and had a good laugh at your one-liners . The strategy to your posting as well as its content is brilliant and dangerous.


  • teenyuck

    Pathofthorns said what I wanted to...only better.

    Very powerful post. You brought out all the points that I knew, however, I could not put my finger on. The four P's. Perfect.

    You very eloquently said what many of us have wanted to.

    Thank you.

    "I used to be Snow White, then I drifted." Mae West

  • Valentine

    Greetings Amnesian
    Good to see you back! And with a stellar to the point post!
    Yes,often times some men who leave the WTS take some of the mindsets with them.It shows by the postings where their 'head is at'.
    Illl comment more when time allows.Thank you so much for saying what needs to be said.And over and over till it sinks into a few heads.luv,Tina

  • sf

    "What happens today when a virtually unknown “JWD sister” saunters into the “JWD ‘KH’” and aggressively confronts and disagrees with one of its very prominent “elders?”"

    I've WITNESSED, firsthand, exactly what DOES happen. I was knocked back into my "seat"; or at least some tried to land me there.

    "Should my A-N-G-E-R ever rise to the level of all this jabber of yours, you can be sure I won’t be wastin’ it ‘round here on no unworthy Internet discussion board. You’ll be able to track it on “America’s Most Wanted” and follow the subsequent proceedings on “CourtTV.”"

    I concur.

    "Permit me to break it down for you, brotha, like a ’69 Datsun in a Tijuana chop shop:

    You no longer speak from behind the authority of the podium at the KH and women are no longer hostages held in your audience with no choice but to give the impression of sitting in quiet rapture, “lapping” whatever concoction you’re ladling if they wish to “earn” G-O-D’s approval.

    We no longer have to check the schedule for time and topic. We can prepare the damn schedule if we wish or ignore it entirely. When we wish to participate in the discussion---and the beauty here is that we don’t even have to do that if we don’t wish and not have to concern ourselves with what some secret committee file may record about us---, we are no longer required to raise our hands to get your attention. We do not have to wait to be acknowledged by you. We don’t even have to wait for a mic---we will speak when we get good and ready and LOUDLY and passionately enough so that there is no mistaking a word or emotion of our point.

    And we don’t have to frame it in the form of a question when we wish to call attention to what we believe to be lies, hypocrisy, and misrepresentations. We can look you directly in your eyes and call it as we see it.

    But, most refreshing, when and if we do choose to speak, we don’t have to parrot some asinine bullsh*t written by intellectual dimwits, published in a grade school primer. We can and will say exactly what we think and feel.

    We can, and some of us will, speak up and let you know if we find your "talk" (i.e., posts) scintillating or mind-numbing, enlightened or medieval, Articulate and Literate or Stymie and Buckwheaty.

    Hell, we can even, proverbially-speaking, rise from our seats, rush the podium and strip you of the mic, if we so desire. And you can do nothing but deal with us as equals who will assess your worthiness to be heard on nothing more than who we assess you to be as a person and not on your corporate medals, badges, rank and serial number."


    "Now, my personal opinion is that your realization of this “new world order”..."

    Oh krap, my conspiracy shit is all wrong then? ()

    Amnesian, please tell me you have yahoo messenger VOICE CHAT downloaded. I would love to chat w/ you and my own passions, if you are interested.

    sKally, stunned in Amazement, klass

  • teejay

    JEEE-sus H Christ!!!!

    I don't like sitting here being stunned into silence with nothing to say, but shit.... I'm sitting here in silence with nothing to say. Good googly goo!!! What an astounding post -- a goddamn piece of art in print form. Let me think about it a couple days.... you know... let it sink in real good. Maybe I can come up with something. I doubt I can.


    p.s. Thank god the man's gone. Answering this is worth a dozen of his separate threads, at least!

  • Valentine


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