THE EX-[ELDERS] FILES: EYES WIDE SHUT

by AMNESIAN 59 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  teejay

  AMNESIAN,

  I'd like to thank you for redirecting the board back to the very important discussion of "elder culpability." As I said before, I don't recall any of us discussing it quite as succinctly since you've been 'gone.' I agree with your opinion.

  There are those who regularly attend the meetings who have been fully exposed, using an expression from The Wizard of Oz, to the man behind the curtain. Quoting you, they “KNOW---they don’t suspect, they don’t doubt, they don’t wonder, they don’t question, imagine, believe, think, divine or guess---they have reached the point of KNOWING that they are not serving their brothers... but the WT Enterprise."

  Among this group are both elders and non-elders (men & women). Are the elders of this group more culpable than the publishers in the same group? And are these elders more culpable than publishers who are still deluded believers? I believe that in both cases, the answer is an unqualified YES.

  For such a man to stick around in a situation he knows to be corrupt, all the while holding on to his exalted postion, with the intention of helping others is questionable. In my opinion, they more concerned with the price they know they will pay for 'stepping down', i.e., the loss of the Ps by which they have been seduced. After all, you can help others without a position.

  On what is a side issue for me, I thought your retelling of an earlier discussion (sorry I missed that one entirely... NOT) of Amazing's efforts (while still an elder) to "‘divulge’ to the innocent sheep in the congregation, particularly [his] Book Study, some of that ‘secret crap’ to which, we as elders, were privy" was intriguing. I ask, right along with you, what would be such an elder's reasoning for doing so while staying put in his position? And why would/should he be shocked if the flock looked upon him as a new kind of idiot?

  You have placed a very compelling and thoroughly important issue before the members of JW.com. More importantly, any lurking elders reading this have much to think about.

  I'll post more later. I'm just now recovering from my earlier shock and am only just beginning to regain my wits... what little of them I have.

  peace,
  tj
• 

  Seeker

  Amnesian,

  I agree with you 100%, and since there is nothing more to add to that statement, I won't.
• 

  JanH

  Amnesian,

  You have a rare talent in bringing the facts out clearly (if not briefly ) and I totally agree with what you say about elder culpability. Regarding those war threads, I did not follow them, and they're pretty moot anyway now.

  In legalese, at least in this part of the world, a common expression is "knew or should have known". Elders do in many cases know that they commit acts that hurt people. These acts are evil; it's just that in WT-land they put organization above individual so they consider the bad they do good (insert appropriate scripture here). And in any case they should have known. No excuse. Of course many elders acted much more responsible than others. It is a question of degree.

  This also applies, but less gravely IMO, to individual publishers. Do they participate in e.g. the shunning policy? disinformation on blood? I did, on both counts. Guilty. I was culpable, and I regret what I did as a JW and have tried to do a bit to reverse the damage later. Many in "positions of authority" were even more so, of course. Some of those are working hard to correct their wrongs now. And I applaud that. None of us can change the past.

  - Jan
  --
  "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
• 

  TMS

  Sister A:

  You've just served up one of those 64oz. steaks they offer FREE in Abilene to anyone who can finish it.

  Well, I finished it, so I guess I'll just leave a small tip and walk out. May take a while to digest, though.

  U admit the WTBS has a fine "P" program! I lamely tried to insinuate this in a post a few months back: "The Retractable Dangling Carrot".

  All facetiousness aside, all during my Theocratic career, I subconsciously distanced myself from Bethel. Never toured. Never read the minutes of a business meeting. In retrospect, I think I feared having my illusion shattered.

  Culpably yours,

  TMS
• 

  SixofNine

  Another nice lil ditty Amnesian. Focus! indeed.

  You don't sound so angry this time. I remember thinking "she just needs a good man to take her to bed". Is it safe to assume that that has happened? You go girl!

  Now somebody slap me and call me bitch for being so niave, but are there really enough elders out there who "know" for us to be having this conversation? It just seems to me to be such a small subset of all JW's as to be almost irrelevant. Again, perhaps I'm naive.

  I just caught JanH's comments, which will help explain my take on the matter. Please keep in mind that NO ONE hates elders more than me.

  Elders do in many cases know that they commit acts that hurt people.

  With all due respect to the great luminary pig dog JanH, (welcome back, btw ) I just disagree. Here is why; JanH's statement is no doubt accurate, but I don't think it shows the true picture. Elders and their victims and their victims friends and family (a long way to say everybody) believe that a) the "hurt" they inflict is either for the good, or, b) not such a big deal, as "Jehovah allowed it".

  Perverse thinking? Hell yeah. But perverse thinking held by the vast majority of JW's. Not wanting to be "culpable" even to his own concience, could sure make a person want to cling to those ideas.

  Your 4P's idea has merit, but it is not in most cases the whole story. A persons motivations are usually not that simple. Also, I submit that the sin is not so much having the 4P's, as it is wanting to have the 4P's to the harm of others. Many men and women are all guilty of that from the day they set foot in a kingdom hall.

  (((Amnesian))) nudge nudge. I said "nudge" Teejay!
• 

  teejay

  Something bothered me when I read it probably as much as anything else. I think it stands as a fitting symbol that illustrates the whole reason for this discussion... the real harm that comes to those who serve UNDER the supervision of elders, especially KNOWING elders.

  I forget in which thread she said it was, but I was a little unnerved by AMNESIAN's accounting of the comments of some here in cyberspace only after Amazing asked for their comments, to wit:

  Thanks for asking!...

  Thank you Amazing for asking that question...

  Thanks for letting me share....

  Amazing, this is a great topic!...

  Amazing, great idea...

  Thanks for starting this thread Amazing...

  What an excellent topic. It is so healing to be able to say how we really feel and felt...

  I love this thread...

  There is something about this topic that usually causes a burning desire for our voice to be heard...

  Thanks...great thread...

  Thank you Amazing for starting this thread...

  This is an excellent thread because so many JW women are oppressed...

  If these comments weren't so tragically sad they would be downright sickening. It reminds me of the exact same inability to speak up for the distress women feel within the brotherhood (emphasis on "brother") that is the Spiritual Paradise. So much pain and misery not allowed to surface and men walking around acting as they have all the answers but knowing all the while that they don't.

  Some have made the comparison to the Taliban. No wonder. It seems that out here in cyberspace, far removed from any of the repercussions likely to befall a JW woman who doesn't 'know her place,' an untold number of women suffer the same closed-mouth attitude, even in matters that ought to be of prime concern to them. Their silent genuflection -- until asked for their opinion -- stands as living testimony to the glaring truth of AMNESIAN's charge.
• 

  TMS

  SixofNine: "Now somebody slap me and call me bitch for being so niave, but are there really enough elders out there who "know" for us to be having this conversation?"

  Six,
  I think I expressed that thought to TeeJay last night in the Farewell from Amazing thread, although I'm too lazy to refresh my recollection.

  It might be more accurate to say that we should have known.

  Amnesian, would it be too forward to ask how your husband feels about his 25 year role? Does he feel guilty or does he rationalize his participation?

  TMS
• 

  JanH

  Six,

  Here is why; JanH's statement is no doubt accurate, but I don't think it shows the true picture.

  You got me, man. How can something be accurate, yet not show the true picture?

  Sure, elders believe that the hurt they inflict can be justified. Yet, my whole point is that they should know it isn't. The whole idea with personal responsibility for actions is that not every excuse is a good excuse. Most criminals no doubt can "justify" what they do to themselves and perhaps to others. Doesn't make them less culpable, just better trained in the noble art of self deception. They should know better. JW elders should know better. And deep inside, a hell of a lot of them do know.

  - Jan
  --
  "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
• 

  SixofNine

  :It might be more accurate to say that we should have known.

  :...my whole point is that they should know...

  Well yeah, guys. But hell, me, the great resister, never even close to MS, beard, R rated movies as I saw fit, etc.... I should have known. I stayed till I left , and even then, my deal-killing issue was blood.

  The point being, we ALL believed that the hurt they inflicted could be justified. THEY had and have more human reasons for sticking to that belief. I don't buy that 100% of those reasons are the 4P's. In most cases, I'd wager that it is the indoctrination, along with not wanting to face culpability (ugly perhaps, but oh so very understandable), along with the 4Ps that keeps elders there. Add to that mix a few other things, in varying amounts for each elder, and you have a masterpiece of self-deception. Not what I would call "knowing".

  I don't think it is a noble art, this self-deception, but there is something very human about it.

  Now then, for more important business:

  How can something be accurate, yet not show the true picture?

  Like this:

  Elders do in many cases know that they commit acts that hurt people.

  Accurate, since stated by Jan.

  Elders and their victims and their victims friends and family (a long way to say everybody) believe that a) the "hurt" they inflict is either for the good, or, b) not such a big deal, as "Jehovah allowed it".

  A true picture, since stated by Six.
• 

  GWEEDO

  women...

  Heres prophet Kinky instead:

  You uppity women I don’t understand
  Why you gotta go and try to act like a man,
  But before you make your weekly visit to the shrink
  You’d better occupy the kitchen, liberate the sink.

  Get your biscuits in the oven and your buns in the bed
  That’s what I to my baby said,
  Women’s liberation is a-going to your head,
  Get your biscuits in the oven and your buns in the bed.

  Early every morning you’re out on the street
  Passing out pamphlets to everyone you meet.
  You gave up your Maiden Form for Lent
  And now the front of your dress has an air scoop vent.

  Every single brakeman that’s ever come along
  Had a little woman always tellin’ him that he’s wrong.
  Eve said to Adam, “Here’s an apple you horse”
  And Delilah defoliated Samson’s moss.

  Get your biscuits in the oven and your buns in the bed
  That’s what I to my baby said,
  Women’s liberation is a-going to your head,
  Get your biscuits in the oven and your buns in the bed.

  Mean-hearted harpies are breaking all the laws
  Tearing up their girdles and a-burning up their bras,
  Now the air is dirty and the sex is clean
  And your coffee makes my hair turn green.

  So damn emancipated in your mind and your body,
  Gonna have to cancel all your lessons in karate.
  If you can’t love a male chauvinist
  You’d better cross me off your shopping list.

  Get your biscuits in the oven and your buns in the bed
  That’s what I to my baby said,
  Women’s liberation is a-going to your head,
  Get your biscuits in the oven and your buns in the bed.

  Kinky Friedman