OBVES & JWs If Jesus were not God,then Expl...
Hi again Adonai !!
Just wanted to add something else that I had found on http://www.carm.org.
Anyone who has the The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the GREEK SCRIPTURES should turn to John 8:58 and read the greek translation of this scripture (on the left) and then how this scripture is translated into the NWT (on the right). Isn't it amazing how the words "I AM" can translate into "I have been"???...LOL. Seems like (especially in light of the translation found at John 1:1 in the NWT, as well as many other scriptures) that this bible has been written to conform to some organizations ideas rather than being translated for accuracy.
WOW GUYS- I haven't checked in on this thread in a long time!
My e-mail hasn't been telling me people are replying to this. Sorry!
Let's see if I can answer some of this! I have placed the persons handle next to each reply so you can keep track of what I am answering to.
What about God resting on the seventh day?
You still ignore the BIBLE even your NWT calling Jesus and the Holy Spirit God and Yahweh.
Yes the father is God- we agree on that.
I take every scripture seriously and the simple fact is the Bible says
There is only ONE true God but calls all three God and says all three have all the divine qualities. If you believe everything the Bible says then you have just believed in the doctrine of the trinity. If you chose to throw out the parts you don't like don't expect your belief to make sense.
The scholars say the trinity and many doctrines of God can be apprehended but not comprehended. That means we can outline the facts but may not understand how the can be. For instance- God did create the world out of nothing but that doesn't mean I can understand how he did it. If you are relying on the WT's quotes of scholars I suggest you check those quotes because all of them are either entirely made up, taken out of context or taken from athiestic sources.
All Christian denominations believe the same core essential doctrines about God, Salvation, etc.. but have different interpretations on minor small issues- not the big stuff. The only differents between JWs and Christians in this respect is they hide their different oppinions because they are afraid to be disfellowshipped over something small. Many of the churches just use different types of music in worship so it's a matter of which is most relevant to you- ie- what is your natural worship style- Hymns, contemporary, etc... I have been to many different churches for worship and have enjoyed them very much. I have one home church because that is the example the Bible sets. Church is for worship of God and instruction on his word. It also is for fellowship among believers. We are at home with all believers no matter the denomination or church. You seem to think we all hate the other denom or church but that is not the case-
A believer is part of the universal body of Christ and family of God.
Another good point!
Good points too-
Food for thoughtYou are right-> without the trinty concept this is impassible.
Jehovah the Only Creator [Make Sure Of All Things." pg 79 1953 ed]
Sentence is self explanatory.
"Thus shall ye say unto them, the gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens" [Jer. 10:11, The Bible]
Conclusion: Christ will perish, along with Moses, & David, & all those other gods.
I am only using logic and the Bible to discuss about the trinty here. If you would like scientific proof that is another topic that can be started though-
There is no scientific proof God does NOT exist and plenty that proves He DOES. If the proof says he does exist (which it does) then you need to find out which 'God' & Holy Book is the truth. Thre are many religions out there and they cannot all be correct when each one says the others are false. After research into science, history, archeology and prophecy it is concluded that the Bible is reliable and inspired. From there you need to find out what it says and follow it. That simple. If you want to discuss any proof then just e-mail or start a thread on it :)
WillPower- Again good point-
The Bible has stood the test of time and has remained the same since it ws written and the earliest Christians all believed basically the same things we do today. God says in the Bible that the gates of hell shall not prevail against his church- so how do JWs explain their thinking that this whole time the Church has been decieved and after some 1800+years after the Bible is completed, Charles Taze Russell Knows the real truth and restores it.-->and they don't even follow a lot of the teachings he originally taught (shrug)
Yep- you are right!
They didn't even do a good enough job at mistranslating though because you can still find the trinity in their NWT. And their KIT proves their own translation wrong- go figure. I guess they just count on no one actually checking and if they do they accuse them of that darned 'independant thinking and Bible reading' offense.
Keep on studying- the truth sets you free!
Does anyone have the Emphatic Diaglott?
on pg 872 in the alphabetical index at the back, we see that the WT states Jesus to be "Almighty" as well as "Deity" & "ALPHA and OMEGA"
ALMIGHTY, able to do all things; an attribute of Deity; also of the glorified Jesus, Rev. 1. 8 iv, 8, &c.
ALPHA and OMEGA, the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet; both applied to Christ, Rev. 1.8; xxl. 6.
If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then this means nothing anyway,
If you believe that you receive spiritual food at the proper time from God's only channel on earth today
then you must have to agree that the Watchtower's FDS(s) are masters of deception and follow a god of mischief who just happens to own some printing presses.
If you don't believe in God then it doesn't matter,
but what if you do believe, or want to believe, shouldn't we all
"Make sure of All Things?"
Yahweh is GOD , but Jesus is God . In the English we can easily make a distinction .In the Hebrew all letters were small so
yahweh is god , jesus is god , moses was god and the servants of god yahweh and jesus will be gods .
So ,if you don't understand the Bible you will see a confusion how many gods ?
We read each word " god " in the contextual appearance and link it with some other related passages of the Bible.
To answer your list of proofs that Jesus is God you note that Yahweh is GOD but Jesus is God . GOD is not the same as God.
-How was it possible for Jesus to know all things, (John 21:17)?
-How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
-How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
-How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
-How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
-How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
-How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?
-How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
-How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
-How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
-How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:244)?
-How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
-Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
-In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? see John 8:58.
-Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
-Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
-Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
-Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)? >>>>>>
And to conclude the matter on high note in Psalm 72.11-15 refutes all your proofs .
It is talking about Jesus there and prayer will be made for him continually .
We pray to GOD , we don't pray for GOD .
I saw a tellling chart in Wikipedia concerning Christian belief. With the exception of the Witnesses and a few other groups, all those calling themselves Christian share a few core beliefs on 90% of doctrine. Perhaps the Witnesses are not truly Christian. The Trinity seems central to me. I was taught during college and again, in Anglican church, that people encounter different aspects of God. Sometimes He is fatherly, sometimes a guru. Sometimes harsh, sometimes compassionate. The Trinity in concept is a way to acknowledge all these different aspects and yet acknowledge the unity of God. I don't think the Bible has a recipe. It is sad to read posters putting each other down.
The Bible is not definitive. Trinity is neither contained in the Bible nor is it denied. The answer is complex. Sometimes it is necessary to embrace complexity. Running from complexity doesn't solve issues. I see the issue as both ways. I also feel strongly that if the existence of a Trinity or nonTrinity were so essential to belief and faith in action, the scriptures writers would have clearly documented the result. God is defined in Judaism as that which is not human. God is not good. God is like good. As John Lennon wrote, "God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
Lining up scriptural proofs, while interesting, does not solve the dilemna. I should look up the quotation but either Jesus or Shakespeare (maybe both) said that the devil can quote scripture for his own purpose. Not that anyone here is the devil. The answer does not have to be A or B. Rather, it is A and B or a combination. I am also unsure what difference it makes in my daily life. It presents an interesting intellectual challenge. I embrace my not knowing. Isn't there a mystic book by St. John of the Cross called The Cloud of Not Knowing.
Besides, it is obvious that God must be She.
Another thread wasted in order to prove something based on a fantasy book.