whipping or not whipping?
In light of the bru-ha-ha we recently endured over what began as and elder culpability issue gone awry, I thought I would present some words of wisdom written some time ago on this very board. Apparently some poster had had a visit by some elders and had felt ganged up on. He described this as getting a "whipping", much like we have seen recent allegations of someone here being recently used as a "whipping boy" for another poster. Here is what the self-porclaimed "whipping boy" had to say about the other posters view of having played the "whipping boy" by being ganged up on by persons of authority:
:I did not see where anyone was "whipping" you, but each offers comments, opinions, caution, and concern from their own hearts and experiences. Rather than a 'whipping, it is more of kindly effort to present the different facets of the situation as some understand it, and to offer you helpful comments.
Interesting insights, considering, dontcha think? I guess the verdict depends on who it is getting the "whipping".
Julie, who marvels at the double standards so often applied even once outside of the WT
Who are you talking about? What is the context? What is your point?
I ask the same question as Magog. What is your point? What are you getting at? What do you hope to acheive?
I would also like to know, if you don't mind sharing, how you could relate to much of what we feel when you have stated in one of your posts that you have never been a JW?
You know I agree with you. Sometimes we might feel personally abused since others strongly differ with our particular viewpoint. The mistake comes in being too attached that viewpoint.
We all have a tendency to be close-minded and think that our viewpoints and opinions are right and if we present them thoroughly to others, they are left with no option but to agree. It's something I'm working hard to overcome with myself.
Although I have strong opinions about many issues, my experience with the WTS has taught me that I could very well be wrong about any and all of them. So, while keeping a firm grip on some viewpoints, I am willing to entertain ideas that oppose my own. Doing so doesn't mean I'm a stupid, clueless idiot. I see it as a mature human, coming to grips with his humanity and a big old universe where there is always more to learn.
The point is very simple. Double standards. What one experience is to one person can be viewed differently by another. Until the observer feels the same has happened to them. Then the viewpoint seems to change. Names of the participants aren't really that important, it can be applicable to anyone here, don't you think? I guess what I hope to achieve would be to encourage an objective view to what others endure, almost as if you yourself were enduring it.
Ladonna, you seem to be a bit irritated that I was never a JW and you seem to imply I cannot possible relate to your "issues", therefore having no business posting here. My dear let me tell you that I am no stranger to oppression or injustice. As I have gotten a few inquiries regarding my history with the WT and answered them individually, I saved one and will post it here:
Anyway, you asked about my background with JWs. I was very interested in learning about religion, this having been peaked when I learned about the Reformation's role in history. Anyway, they came to my door, I thought it'd be interesting and educational. Boy I didn't know the half of it, eh? :-)
Anyway, I got to be good friends with the gal I studied with. She had kids close to the ages of mine and they made friends. We visited socially. Keep in mind too that at the time I was a pretty faithful Catholic. I had returned to my faith after some traumatic times in my life. We enjoyed our studies because we always went off on side conversations. We both liked to research stuff. It did occur to me that she did *all* her research from WT books. ;-)
She was a very kind, generous and loving person. I enjoyed her company a lot but I did notice she acted a little "differently" when certain people were around (JW men to be exact). More serious and straight-laced etc.
I studied with her (and various people of course, always brought a "study buddy") for 18 months or so. I only attended one meeting in all that time, it was a memorial. I thought it odd. At the end of their little study/indoctrination book is the part about deciding to become baptized and the pressure started. It had been very no pressure up till that point.
I found this an unpleasant development and looked into the WT. I hated their books and how they wanted the studies to go. Hated those stupid questions and the canned answers they obviously fished for. I had heard little things too throughout my time with my friend. How it is the job of others to keep the org clean and stuff. One lady laughed about how her daughter's kids would cry about "I don't want a spanking" while being carried away to the bathroom. "Kids just have to learn respect"....my friend was uncomfortable during this "slip" as she knew I wouldn't approve of such. Anyway, lots of red flags and then I went looking for more info.
Well as you can guess I found plenty and then even more when I found h2o. I confronted my friend with some of the stuff I printed up, they ran away and never came back. I got a letter from her like a year later. She told me she thought I was just using that as an excuse to stay with the Catholic church (which btw, she had taken care to bring me any bad article/news on she could find throughout relationship). She let me know we would have no further contact. I felt horribly betrayed by her when I learned how the borg really worked. I didn't understand how she, knowing me as she did, could possibly think I could be happy with such a religion. So oppressive.
In time I learned that it is *she* who is the real victim. I learned a lot more than that too, as you may guess. I grew attached to some of the posters from h2o and followed the migration to JWD. I have things in common with many of the folks actually. One of which is the quest for understanding this world we are in. I too have only just awakened to it in the past decade or so, at least on a much higher level than before. I credit hardship for the progress. ;-) Another thing I have in common with them (and of course countless others) is the dysfunctional environment in childhood so I can relate to much of that. I also like to keep tabs on the org and would do anything I could to help put a stop to the oppression they do.
You'd be surprised at how much I learned has helped me academically too (mostly at h20 but the learning continues at JWD too). You will notice how some posters have very high standards for "proof" and sources etc. I learned to apply that to all things (not to sound like a WT pub), especially my history studies and am a much more disciplined student for it. I will always be grateful for the personal and academic progress I have been able to make thanks to the people on these DBs. I learn from those much further in their journey and from those just starting out. I guess you can learn something from every one, eh?
So there you are. My background/association with the WT.
I hope this meets your criteria Ladonna for me to continue associating with you all. I think it is common knowledge that those outside of the WT actually know more about it than those in. I mean how many loyal JWs do you think know about the UN thing? I am horrified at what this org. does, was extremely disappointed to learn the truth of it too. Lost what I considered a valued friend too.
I wonder why you ask me these questions in this thread.
:I am willing to entertain ideas that oppose my own. Doing so doesn't mean I'm a stupid, clueless idiot. I see it as a mature human, coming to grips with his humanity and a big old universe where there is always more to learn.
I agree completely. Commendable attitude, I work to achieve the same myself though I know I sometimes fall short. I keep trying. Typical mortal.
Thankyou so much for sharing your involvement with the JW's. I had no idea and was merely curious. I had wanted to ask before but it slipped my mind, especially during the Christmas, New Years period.
But when you write
Ladonna, you seem to be a bit irritated that I was never a JW and you seem to imply I cannot possible relate to your "issues", therefore having no business posting here.I am completely at a loss for words.
Julie, as you are well aware, there is NO vocal tone to words that are typewritten. I had no malicious intent and am saddened to read your accusations.
I hope this meets your criteria Ladonna for me to continue associating with you all. I think it is common knowledge that those outside of the WT actually know more about it than those in. I mean how many loyal JWs do you think know about the UN thing? I am horrified at what this org. does, was extremely disappointed to learn the truth of it too. Lost what I considered a valued friend too.This was cruel and senseless Julie. I can hardly believe you are writing this. Guess I don't want to believe it.
Despite all of that, I am truly happy that you are doing so well due to all your learning at H2O and this forum. You are correct, these are excellent avenues of learning. All the best in your chosen field.
As for the UN mess the WTS has themselves into, they know about it alright, they just hide their head in the sand like Ostriches. (sp)
I only have a minute before I dash off to an unpleasant appointment that I'd rather miss....
:I am completely at a loss for words.
You are at a loss for words because I read some irritation in your post? You didn't merely ask "So Julie, how come you're so interested in JW issues when you've never been one?" No, you wrote:
"how you could relate to much of what we feel when you have stated in one of your posts that you have never been a JW?"
Perhaps I am not much of a fluffer so I see here that you insinuate I couldn't possibly understand and had no business commenting. Of course double standards are not exclusive to the WT world and since my post was on double standards I guess I was taken aback by both the timing and the tone of your inquiry.
I hope this meets your criteria Ladonna for me to continue associating with you all. I think it is common knowledge that those outside of the WT actually know more about it than those in. I mean how many loyal JWs do you think know about the UN thing? I am horrified at what this org. does, was extremely disappointed to learn the truth of it too. Lost what I considered a valued friend too.:This was cruel and senseless Julie. I can hardly believe you are writing this. Guess I don't want to believe it.
I am guessing the part of me hoping my background meets your criteria as the cruel part. Again, I refer to the timing and tone of your inquiry. I know you are none too pleased with the words I had for your friend Amazing in recent days, couldn't help but guess that you were being a bit crabby with me for that.
I certainly hope that you do not think my assertion that those outside the borg know more about it than those in to be a cruel statement. I see it talked about here all the time. In fact, isn't it because someone actually learns more truths about the WT that they generally get out? Don't they then usually go on to learn things they never dreamed to be true about the WT?
My intent was not to be cruel, offend you or leave you speechless. Merely to explain it all and I happened to take very slight offense at the tone and timing of your inquiry as explained.
Hope we both understand where the other is coming from now.
I have had several visits from the elders and never felt like I was being whipped. They seem genuinely concerned about me and my spiritual condition. Once the CO asked if he could give me a hug when he left and it seemed like a real act of love. I'm not saying this is the case with all congregations or overseers or visits, just my experience. I guess they don't feel threatened by me. I know it would be quite different if they were there to disfellowship and I had close family in the congregation and it was going to ruin our relationship, then I would be pissed big time. Circumstances and personalities make a big difference in whether it's a whipping or not.
I enjoyed your post and agree that double standards are both in and out of Dubdom.
I really enjoyed your JW story. I was aware of part of it, but did not know the details you provided. I wish I had been as insightful as you were when I studied.
Many who study with the JWs find the same problem that you did: the one who was such a close friend when you are "progressing" often stops visiting you at all when you stop studying. Or, if you get baptised, after a few months, they do not visit very often. Part of the former is the "don't associate with non-JWs" thing, and the latter is often the very busy schedule JWs have.
But both reflect the same sad fact: often, but not always, the "friend" was really not a real friend after all. Although sincere, they were primarily being your friend to convert you. Although in your case, she may have remained a friend if you became a Witness. No matter what the reason, it really hurts.
This psuedo-friendship stuff happens even after baptism, especially if a JW misses meetings too much. Between necessary stuff to do at home and work, I had to "work" literally 20 hour days for three months and hence missed most meetings. A brother, a nice fellow, who previously had paid little attention to me suddenly started to visit me. It was summer, and he would just drop by for a few minutes. He would not stay for coffee or beer. I found his sudden "interest" in me odd; to this day I think he was assigned as a "friend" to me to "encourage" me.