ASK YOURSELF this question and see what your answer is....

by Terry 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  PSacramento

  The Vatican does have some very old samples of scriptures.

  The "bible", as it was finally accepted in the 4th century is very much "original".

  The different codex's ( Siniticus, Vaticanus, Rectus, sorry if I missed any) are pretty old as it is.

  The fact that we don't have the original writings from the 1st century of Paul and others is, well, understandable, the frits letters were written to people that one would hardly call "scholars" or "historians" and the chances of them keeping letters very well preserved was probably minimal.

  Of course, when Christianity became an organized religion and then an "offical" one, control became the name of the game.

  Funny thing is that it was probably not even needed ( the writings I mean), it was something that was carried over from Judaisim.

  Look at the other ancient religions liek Buddhisim and Taoisim and Hinduisim, they certainly have writings but none are as venerated as the OT and NT are to Jews and Christians.
• 

  Terry

  I'll try again. The issue is quite monumental. But, if you aren't use to thinking about it....it seems too subtle and unimportant.

  You said: What does "original" mean but the very first which originates from the hand of the writer?

  The "bible", as it was finally accepted in the 4th century is very much "original".

  The different codex's ( Siniticus, Vaticanus, Rectus, sorry if I missed any) are pretty old as it is.

  The fact that we don't have the original writings from the 1st century of Paul and others is, well, understandable, the frits letters were written to people that one would hardly call "scholars" or "historians" and the chances of them keeping letters very well preserved was probably minimal.

  Of course, when Christianity became an organized religion and then an "offical" one, control became the name of the game.

  What does "original" mean but the very first which originates from the hand of the writer?

  Look at the United States Constitution or the Gettysburg Address as examples of "original".

  These documents are preserved because they have a transcendent value over and above replicas.

  Ask it another way and see if you can see the importance:

  IF a doctor's prescription for a life saving drug is copied by a layperson (or murderer!) and the corrupt copy is given to the Pharmacy;

  is there an important difference? Once the patient dies the responsibility for that death cannot be determined UNLESS you compare the slip at the Pharmacy with the Original slip from the Doctor.

  A corrupt copy may have corruption deliberately or accidentally. If a thousand hands copy something with a thousand motives---the results will be corruption upon corruption.

  Religiion today is a maze...a nightmare...of specific citations of word of scripture interpretations!

  If the word is wrong it logically follows the interpretation is wrong!

  Jehovah's Witnesses split hairs over the wording of scripture constantly.

  How do you prove a word is correct if you HAVE NO EXEMPLAR in the original with which to compare??

  You see how vital this issue really is???
• 

  Terry

  addendum:

  You said: "very much 'orignal'"

  I said: "..the very first which originates from the hand of the writer."

  The way the text printed (above) does not clarify.

  Thanks
• 

  sir82

  The "bible", as it was finally accepted in the 4th century is very much "original".

  I think Terry's point is this:

  The original manuscripts, the physical pieces of parchment or papyrus or leather, onto which Matthew, Mark, etc. set their pen to, are long long gone.

  Between the 1st and 4th centuries, copies of copies of copies of copies.....of copies were made. ALL written by hand, by untrained non-professional scribes, and if there was any sort of "quality control", we have no idea what it was.

  Once, as you noted, the Bible became "official", then there arose a more formal system for making copies. It was of course still imperfect, mistakes were made, but overall it was pretty good.

  But between the 1st and 4th centuries - how many mistakes were made? Do you know? Does anybody?

  What assurance do we have that, for example, the oldest complete surviving full document of the Gospel of Luke, maybe from the 4th or 5th century, contains precisely, or even essentially, the same message Luke wrote for the first time centuries earlier?
• 

  Olin Moyles Ghost

  Great thread. I've long wondered why God couldn't have simply preserved the original writings of the Bible. It shouldn't be that hard...for the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.

  And there are other "original" religious writings that have survived. I'm thinking of the hieroglyphs in Egypt. These are thousands of years old. If ancient pagan "false religious" writings could be preserved for thousands of years, why couldn't God have done the same for the books of the Bible?
• 

  yknot

  I agree that the WTS has been borrowing from the RCC for years and would utimately love to have attain such a position as fully......

  However unlike the RCC with it's not for public archive......much of the WTS material is easily accessed thanks to personal websites and public domain sites.

  Looking over the history of the WTS you see clearly where each successive leader does disregard some former teachings until Henschel's presidency. From there they have lost their link to the past and they wander the interpretations jig-sawing their way along hoping beyond hope that Armageddon will happen. I think the WTS has seriously overplayed it's hand via Rutherford/Franz and should history repeat itself they are destined to have another '1928' occuring in the near future.......to not just means a slow limp to irrevelevency via under-educated countries or populations.

  I accept that different religions have different bibles too..... the RCC has more OT books while some Lutherans still have Hebrews and Revelation sectioned away from the main body.
• 

  Terry

  If ancient pagan "false religious" writings could be preserved for thousands of years, why couldn't God have done the same for the books of the Bible?

  You said a mouthful.

  Why, indeed?

  It can only be for the startling reason: Bible destroys true worship and creates divisions into competing orthodoxies.

  Or....

  There was no preserving deity because there was nothing but the projected ideas of men in the first place.

  Your mileage may vary according to your personal standards of proof.

  T
• 

  Terry

  Just as a sidebar, here is a snippet from Wiki about the Secret Vatican Archives.

  Be it noted: the word "secret" is not used the way you think. It more like we use the word "protected" or "private".

  The Vatican Secret Archives have been estimated to contain 52 miles (84 km) of shelving, [4] and there are 35,000 volumes in the selective catalogue alone. "Indexes must be consulted in the Index Room and replaced in their original location. Publication of the indexes, in part or as a whole, is forbidden." [5] The Archives support their own photographic and conservation studios.

  According to the website of the Archives, the oldest surviving document dates back to the end of the eighth century. "Transfers and political upheavals nearly caused the total loss of all the archival material preceding Innocent III." [6] From 1198 onwards, more complete archives exist, though documentation is a little scanty before the 13th century. Since that time, the documentation includes items such as Henry VIII of England's request for a marriage annulment, and letters from Michelangelo.

  Access

  The entrance to the Archives, adjacent to that to the Vatican Library, is approached through the Porta di S. Anna in via di Porta Angelica (rione of Borgo). New underground storage space was added in 1980. [7]

  There is no generic browsing, and researchers must ask for the precise document they wish to see, identifying it either by consulting the indices or from some other source
• 

  quietlyleaving

  I don't think the bible itself claims to be a universal authority. Universal authority was given the bible during the period of the reformation and this was done, it seems to challenge the Catholic church. The Catholic Church itself did not take its authorty from the "bible" but from some form of apostolic succession I believe and from the backing of Rome. To say that the Catholic church have endeavoured to hide the "bible" from the masses is simply a powerful "protestant" device to challenge Catholic political and doctrinal authority. We too can use this device to challenge authority and doctrine (the WTS').

  I think parts of the bible can do this because they have the power to galvanise ordinary people to be heroic. A hero of course does not look to material rewards and is prepared to undergo extreme adversity and not give up. They were called saints and holy ones and we can learn from them

  So yes I agree with you Terry
• 

  dissed

  Why didn't the Almighty preserve 'it' for everyone? Why the secrecy 'if' it's his books of life saving communication? Why did he intrust them to 'only' the RCC?

  Yes, yes, yes, the WTS will say, " we have them now inspite of games the RCC played with them." But what about the gap of 3-400 years, as they were being put together? And who decided what should be in the Bible? That's right, the RCC. Do you really trust them, I don't?

  It should have been in my opinion, like Harry's invite to school in the 'Harry Potter' movie. The invitation would not be denied by his plotting step parents. In the end, it came from everywhere, they couldn't stop the all important message no matter what they did.

  Instead, with God's lifesaving message, it has to come to everyone, through mysterious and hidden, (many of them disputed) ways. A little girl sees Mary and she talks to her, a baker see Jesus on a Tortilla, etc...

  And the written message, can it really be trusted to the letter of the law like the JW's say?

  At least the invading aliens from outerspace signal their intentions of their plans to destroy humans and take over the Earth. Why can't god be as clear?

  And don't think for a second, its a small group of people going to some doors sharing a message, "Would you like some magazines?"