GETTING SUCKED IN? Ask the right questions to get the right answers.

by Terry 145 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Perry

  Terry,

  I understand your point. But it is just silly to live one's life that way. I guarantee that you don't .... not in the real world, no one could.

  Yes, in the science textbook ....(1) hard data is collected (2) hypothesis is formulated FROM the data (3) tests are made. But we don't live in a science book.

  Even Einstein did mostly thought experiments using hypothetical data that RESULTED in testable proof. The Christian does the same thing. He decides to believe on Jesus Christ, and God in turn guarantees to bear witnesss in his spirit (give proof) of sonship, his existence, love, reproof, rewards etc. This is what happened to me. It is what has happened to EVERY single Chistian for 2000 years.

  Now according to you, just because Einstein skipped step one, or just sorta worked it out in his head, then his testable and provable models don't deserve to exist. That's just plain silly.

  Did you never color outside the lines when you were a kid?
• 

  bohm

  Perry: The quote: "Even Einstein did mostly thought experiments using hypothetical data that RESULTED in testable proof", you do realize this is the strongest evidence one can have for a theory right? I mean, that it was build on very little data to begin with, and then data was introduced as a test afterwards?
• 

  bohm

  Perry: If all i ever did was sitting in mom and pops basement watching reruns of friends and all of a sudden i had an idea for a scientific theory based on no evidence, just something i thought up. If that theory turned out to agree with some experiments i later did, that would be IDEAL and VERY strong evidence in favor of it. It does not matter where the theory originates from, in fact, the less data is avaliable when it is formulated, the better.
• 

  Perry

  bohm...you're messin' it all up here! You are not supposed to be helping me.

  Terry's argument is that that's a no, no.
• 

  Terry

  I think your premise is that anything which excludes your view of the supernatural is flawed.

  But, a supernatural anything means "outside of nature". Nature is all there is. Outside of all there is can only be imaginary.

  Whatever process a person uses to arrive at a conclusion it must require testing, proof and a match with reality.

  I'm not upset with Einstein coming up with ideas which could be tested. Einstein's views are mostly outside the scope of our workaday lives as far as influencing what decisions we make anyway.

  I find it rather interesting the way you tackle an issue, Perry.

  You start at the end point of your assumption: Supernature active in Perry's life and work backward toward a presumption of its reality based on your assertion that it is so. Are any facts-matching-reality involved which aren't filtered through your subjective assessment?

  Or, is it like me telling you I have a toothache? You have to take my word for it until a dentist can confirm it?
• 

  Terry

  The Christian does the same thing. He decides to believe on Jesus Christ, and God in turn guarantees to bear witnesss in his spirit (give proof) of sonship, his existence, love, reproof, rewards etc.

  Consider this:

  1. If man is a wretch (worthless sinner) with no hope in and of himself (premise) then...

  2.Decisions to believe on Jesus Christ must be the action and result of a wretched mind making wretched decisions.

  Because:

  3. What is sown is reaped. (logical connective)

  The motive being the wretch wants a way out and invents one outside of his own power to produce escape from the natural consequence of his worthless nature.

  In other words, a Wretch would (by nature) wish into existence a FREE PASS exempting him from the justice of dying without hope.

  The GRACE (UNdeserved kindness) of Jesus would only have basis in the worthless sense of Justice in the mind of the Wretch (getting something UNdeserved) for nothing.

  Isn't getting something for nothing just the sort of escape plan a Wretch would come up with?

  How is this not logical?

  Terry
• 

  Perry

  Isn't getting something for nothing just the sort of escape plan a Wretch would come up with?

  Watch those premises! There is no such "something for nothing" offer in the NT. The gospels are rife with references like "he sold everything he had for the pearl of great price", "he that seeks to find his soul will lose it and he that seeks to lose his soul will find it". What does it REALLY take for a fully aware man to make the statement to another, "Do with me what you will"? Because that's what it takes.

  I think your premise is that anything which excludes your view of the supernatural is flawed.

  If God's promises of providing proof and fellowship are true.... how could it be any different? Most Christians just keep quite about it, treating it as very personal...which it is. I personally don't mind the ridicule (not that you have engaged in that today).

  I find it rather interesting the way you tackle an issue, Perry. You start at the end point of your assumption: Supernature active in Perry's life and work

  backward toward a presumption of its reality based on your assertion experience that it is so.

  (There, just a small adjustment to that last part of your quote to make it more accurate.)

  May I suggest that what intrigues you has nothing whatsoever to do with me, and what has piqued your interest is the process of Sanctification that goes on inside every believer, because that is what you are actually picking up on.

  Based on the scriptures and confirmed by my own experience I wrote this piece about it here.

  It's late. Goodnight and God bless.
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  For once, I have my popcorn out on this one. I doubt I need to share where my sympathies lie on this one.....
• 

  Terry

  I think you avoided my question entirely...an oversight?
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Terry

  Do us a favor so there is no confustion, ask specifically what question Perry dodged.

  And I know what he did. I am involving myself too much already as a bystander, but it is frustrating I know to argue, esp considering the premise of your original post.

  Perry, I doubt very seriously you take a word I say seriously, so I am just on the record to say that Terry makes some good points that you have evaded.

  Beyond that, my popcorn is getting cold.