Odd CO talk...ever hear anything like this?

by sir82 35 Replies latest jw friends

  • snowbird

    Sir, you made yourself perfectly clear.

    I believe the Bible is only peripheral to WT - the less people know about it, the better chance WT has of hooking them.

    I wouldn't be surprised at any tangent on which they may go!

    Blondie, I believe they later retracted the "justice tempered by mercy" thingy.



    Same old,Same old..

    The WBT$ makes things up as they go along..

    They have an Idiot deliver the message..


    ........................... ...OUTLAW

  • blondie

    *** w02 3/1 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***

    Is it correct to say that Jehovah’s mercy tempers his justice?Although this expression has been used, it is best to avoid it since it seems to imply that Jehovah’s mercy softens or restrains his justice, as if his mercy were superior to the harsher quality of justice. This is not correct.

    The Hebrew word translated "justice" in the NewWorldTranslation can also mean "judgment." Justice is closely related to righteousness. However, justice usually has legal implications. Righteousness usually does not. It is true that Jehovah’s justice can involve the meting out of deserved punishment, but it can also involve the providing of salvation for deserving ones. (Genesis 18:20-32; Isaiah 56:1; Malachi 4:2) Hence, Jehovah’s justice should not be viewed as harsh or needing to be softened.

    The Hebrew word for "mercy" can refer to the exercise of restraint in the administering of judgment. It can also refer to an active expression of compassion, bringing relief to the disadvantaged.—Deuteronomy 10:18; Luke 10:29-37.

    Jehovah is a God of both justice and mercy. (Exodus 34:6, 7; Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 145:9) His justice and his mercy are both perfect, and they work together harmoniously. (Psalm 116:5; Hosea 2:19) Both qualities perfectly balance or complement each other. Hence, if we were to say that Jehovah’s mercy tempered his justice, we would also have to say that his justice tempered his mercy.

    Isaiah prophesied: "Jehovah will keep in expectation of showing you favor, and therefore he will rise up to show you mercy. For Jehovah is a God of judgment ["justice," TheNewEnglishBible]." (Isaiah 30:18) Isaiah here shows that Jehovah’s justice motivates acts of mercy rather than that his mercy softens or restrains his justice. Jehovah shows mercy because he is just and also because he is loving.

    True, the Bible writer James wrote: "Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment." (James 2:13b) However, in context James is speaking not of Jehovah but of Christians who show mercy—for example, toward the afflicted and the poor. (James 1:27; 2:1-9) When such merciful ones are brought into judgment, Jehovah takes note of their conduct and mercifully forgives them on the basis of his Son’s sacrifice. Thus, their merciful conduct triumphs over any adverse judgment they might have been liable for.—Proverbs 14:21; Matthew 5:7; 6:12; 7:2.

    Therefore, it is not correct to say that Jehovah’s judgment is tempered by his mercy in the sense that his justice needs to be softened by mercy. In Jehovah the two qualities are in perfect equilibrium. They balance each other just as they balance—and are balanced by—Jehovah’s other qualities, such as love and wisdom.

  • BabaYaga

    Sir82 said:

    "grace / undeserved kindness" is merely a sort of "temporary stay of execution"

    Now that is profound! I must say I never thought of it in quite those terms before.

  • Satanus

    So, jesus as supposed mediator between god and man has absolutely no effect on god to human relations. His death, which was supposed to have changed everything, has changed nothing in the jw world. As far as forgiveness of mankind goes, his early death, accompanied by unneeded suffering was totally needless. The only remaining reason for jesus dying was as an apprenticeship for qualifying him as a king. God needs him to be earth's king, cuz god isn't able to or can't be bothered to riegn over the earth, himself.


  • snowbird
    in the jw world.

    You said well, Satanus.

    In the JW world, it's all about the sayings of the FDS GB.


  • changeling

    I don't find it odd at all. What he spelled out has always been the WT's position.

  • VoidEater

    Undeserved kindness (grace) is what caused Jehovah to let man continue to live - so that his works might prove him worthy of salvation.

    So, I'm with Changeling - sounds the same to what I was taught.

    And, yes, Satanus - it had bothered me since I was very young that, on the one hand, there is this "undeserved kindness" arrangment that lets man redeem himself through works (and this includes-pre-Birth of Christ man), and then on the other hand there's this "God had to kill Jesus to balance the fall of Adam" (redeem perfect life with perfect life) thing.

    You don't need one with the other. They don't mesh. It's like the first part deals with how man is supposed to achieve salvation, but the second part only deals with why Jesus had to die? What kind of arbitrary, limited being is this Jehovah character?

    As far as the Justice versus Mercy thing - yes, I recall that kind of language from the 60's. Seemed that God could not be Just and Merciful, since Justice always demands some extreme form of punushment leaving no room for Mercy, and Mercy was just another way of saying "I'll punish you later."

  • moshe

    A perfect Adam and Eve never had eternal life to begin with at the time of their creation otherwise they would never had been driven away from the tree of life to keep them from living forever.

    Something can be perfect, but still wear out, if that was part of it's original plan/design. We may not like the idea of an eventual death, but that does seem to be the plan for 100% of Earth's living creatures. Tthe entire talk given by the CO just a bunch of-

  • Farkel

    :Noah performed a righteous act by preaching and building an ark,

    Wrong. The Biblical account is quite clear: God had already made up his mind that EVERYONE save Noah and family was to die. It never said God told Noah to preach a single thing, and it never said Noah preached a single thing. Even if he did, what would be the message? "You are all going to die. God says so. So there." What good would preaching something like that do? Nothing!

    Even though Paul said Noah was a preacher of righteous, it doesn't tie with the ACTUAL Genesis account, so Paul just made that up. There was virtually NO chance of salvation while the doors of the Ark were still open, despite all the rubbish the WTS uses when they make a false analogy between that and choosing the WT religion while the "doors to the (their) Ark" are still open.

    And there was nothing "righteous" about Noah building the Ark. It had to be done to save his ass. Build it or die. That's not "righteous" by any definition.


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