Thank you all - I genuinely look forward to your responses. Here is a youtube clip that, for me, is convincing: that we, and the universe provide evidence... how do you feel about this? Please take a look at it.
If theres no God why the earth, the brain the universe? (Atheist and Agnostics)
by cyberjesus 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Terry
"WHY?" is sometimes useful.
At other times it is an invitation from yourself TO yourself to put what you want to be there.....THERE.
Sort of like a prejudice.
Why are blondes so stupid?
Why are pretty girls so stuck up?
Why are guys so clueless?
The question is rigged for only one kind of answer: the right-shaped answer.
If you are asking a God-shaped question, only a God-shaped answer will fit right....in your mind.
We live in a world where IMPORTANT things are the RESULT of design and manufacture.
It becomes UNthinkable to leave categories of IMPORTANT things without that key/lock kind of fit.
Think about this:
1.Unless everything that happened so far happened, then, WE wouldn't ask our question.
2.If something else happened and somebody else was here THEY would ask THEIR question instead.
3.If something else happened and nobody was anywhere...what need is there for any question to be asked?
Conclusion?
Only he who is someplace asks the question. It is irrelevent who that someone is or where they are or why they got there.
It is merely a consequence of being and thinking.
Non-existence requres no questions and no answers.
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zannahdoll
Thank you Terry for your quick response... I'm still questioning here...
1. Unless everything that happened so far happened, then, WE wouldn't ask our question.
Everything that has happened so far has happened. So WE do ask (we agree here)
2. If something else happened and somebody else was here THEY would ask THEIR question instead.
Isn't this a false dilemma? "They" aren't here. I agree that I am limited to my own point of view, but that is because a point of view does exist for me to have as does a point of view exist for you to have.
3.If something else happened and nobody was anywhere...what need is there for any question to be asked?
This reminds me of this question: If a tree falls in the forrest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
I am not in disagreement with you that it is a consequence of being and thinking - however you put "merely" in front of that... in my opinion: it is a great, grand thing that we ask questions and that such consequences exist... I don't know that it is coincidence, and have a hard time believing that it is a coincidence at this time and place.
How do we get a conclusion? I agree with you that he who is someplace asks the question... however I disagree on the irrelevance... that is like saying that the ends justifies the means... where we come from and where we are is what nurtured us to be what we are.
puzzled...
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White Dove
I didn't read all of the explanations or comments.
I think one of the possibilities among many is that given the specific conditions of our planet and solar system, all of this had to happen.
It's like raising the temperature of water. You raise it enough and bubbles and steam have to happen when they weren't there before.
Add water and sunlight to a seed in dirt and it comes to life. It has to happen, like mildew in your shower (wasn't there before!). God didn't create the mildew. It just happened because of the right conditions. It had to.
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White Dove
Remember that scripture that "there's no other planet with life on it besides earth" is based on?
The earth is Jehovah's footstool. What a weak argument for the earth being the only life and/or people posessed planet.
To me, the universe is divine. It cannot be separate from God. It is God/dess.
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zannahdoll
Hi White Dove -
I'm not a JW, never was, and, in this thread at least, I'm not asking/making a case for the Christian God... read my response to frankiespeakin or watch the youtube clip I posted... I'm questioning more not just that we exist but how complicated the process for our existence and saying that it is hard to believe it is chance... especially after that youtube clip I posted...
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Terry
I am not in disagreement with you that it is a consequence of being and thinking - however you put "merely" in front of that... in my opinion: it is a great, grand thing that we ask questions and that such consequences exist... I don't know that it is coincidence, and have a hard time believing that it is a coincidence at this time and place.
How do we get a conclusion? I agree with you that he who is someplace asks the question... however I disagree on the irrelevance... that is like saying that the ends justifies the means... where we come from and where we are is what nurtured us to be what we are.
Let's put it another way.
A friend of mine who is a gifted artist entered a local contest being held at a Bank.
My friend was a professional artist earning fifteen thousand per painting for many years. He is semi-retired and has been for about eight years.
When the contest came up his wife goaded him into entering for the fun of it.
There was no restriction on amateur vs professional.
So, he took three of his recent canvas works in and entered them.
Long story short: he got honorable mention and a rather obvious amateurish work got first place.
So what?
I asked, "Who were the judges in this contest?"
The answer came: "The tellers at the Bank."
Now, what is my point?
Not that my friend SHOULD have had a lock on winning.
It was that the result was very much directly the result (not of the quality of the art) of the level of taste and preference by the employees of the Bank.
Certain kinds of art require more familiarity with style, technique, degree of difficulty, etc.
The point is that the WINNER fit the shape in the head/tastes of the Bank Tellers.
Agnostics have one shape in their head. Atheists have another shape. Believers have a God-shape.
We are the JUDGES in the WHY contest!
What wins has to fit the shape in our head!
The WINNER has little to do with much else than that.
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moshe
Go to the beach, lean down and pick up one grain of sand. What are the odds that you would select that one tiny grain of sand from all the quadrillions of sand grains on the beach? --And yet you did exactly that. Sometimes odds or the importance of an event can be misleading, especially, if you are the grain of sand who just got picked up.
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frankiespeakin
Zanna,
I don't know what videos you are thanking me for? I posted an awful lot of them but none recently I think.
BTW your welcome, and welcome to JWN.
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zannahdoll
interesting argument... much more clear for me to understand when you put it another way, thank you. One thing I found interesting is that you say " Agnostics have one shape in their head. Atheists have another shape. Believers have a God-shape. " because I told my atheist friend that he started to fill up on Atheist ideas, to which he replied there is no such thing as "atheist ideas"
you make a very good point; however, playing devil's advocate:
The art world had learning that gave them an appreciation of what is "good" art and therefore makes your retired friend successful. The bank tellers also had their ideas of art, be it as less educated in art as it may or may not have been... they still had notions of what appealed to them. The art community and the bank tellers had different schools of thought, however they were schooled in some way. They did get their ideas from someplace. We decide the winners, but what put the ideas in our head in the first place to make these decisions? Also, things like art and beauty are subjective, but then there also tends to be things that have much greater appeal by a wide audience then other things... such as the beauty of a sunset on the beach...
Hmmm.... further questions: is it because I think a sunset on the beach is beautiful that makes it beautiful? Would other people agree that it is beautiful? If I never were to view a sunset would it make it less beautiful? According to you, Terry, I decide if it is a winner. Do I have a sunset shape in my head that makes it so?
Terry, sincerely though, really good insight, you challenged my way of thinking. I still don't know.
I agree with you that picking up one grain of sand is totally random. I agree with you that it is a specific grain of sand out of millions, and that it is specific holds no real significance... However here is where we differ, and this is what I was trying to get across: what if I took that grain of sand, with it's fellow grains of sand, and blew it into glass. Further I took the glass and blew it in the shape of a swan... what if, further, I made hinges and wheels and corks and screws and now I have a mechanical glass swan that sings a song and walks around... While picking up a grain of sand may be random creating a glass swan would not be random. Making it into a robot would be even less random. Our universe is far more complex then the design and workings of making a glass figurine or making a robot.
The universe and life on this planet has so much more complexity: including patterns and harmony... design... The act of picking up a grain of sand would not require design...