JW zealots will do anything the WTS tells them to and I believe that mass suicide could happen if it was packaged as taking a sleeping pill and waking up in the new system of things. If any JW or any person who still has those old JW clingons attached to them, was told that the big A was happening on a specific day and all congregations were to meet at a local congregation together for safety and accountability, they'd do it. The risk is not surviving. Would it happen? Who knows? I don't really think so but nobody knows what tomorrow brings. Are the JW's as a mindset in the same category as the Jones cult members? Without a doubt - they are brainwashed cult members who have already allowed friends and family members to die as a result of constantly changing doctrine such as organ transplants and blood transfusions, not to mention differing rules for ALL Gods people such as Malawi and Mexico. sammieswife.
Jonestown cult and the JWs
Hassans book, which I have skimmed but not read closely, brings out an interesting fact, that cults are everywhere. And that there are different kinds of cults.
It is natural for anyone associated with JW's to believe that there are only two cults in the world, JW's and Jonestown, just like others who have abandoned cults think its their cult and Jonestown.
When I first left JW's, I liked to call JW's a "high control group" (admittedly, a distinction without a difference) because at least MY old religion wasn't like Jonestown.
I think it is important to realize that while anything is possible, anything isn't probable. Jones took his Motley Crew over to an island for isolation. JW's are an international conglomerate with over 100 branch offices around the world. The only plausible way they could do mass suicide was to all move to one island, say, Hispanola for example. (in other words, it isn't happening)
Is it your belief that all cults will end up like Jonestown? If so, isn't it rather peculiar that only Jonestown and Heaven's Gate are the only mass suicide cults of note, each much smaller, and frankly, much different then JW's?
JW's ARE a cult, and merit being argued with for the reasons that make them a cult. While there are obvious similarities, there are also undeniable differences between Jonestown and JW's that make a direct comparison or worries about how JW's might end worthless.
Most cults don't kill themselves, they die of natural causes. JW's will likely be among those who die in their own marginalized insignificance.
I believe that mass suicide could happen if it was packaged as taking a sleeping pill and waking up in the new system of things.
You are out of your mind.
You are out of your mind.
Perhaps it would be more polite for you to say that you disagree. Many are worried about JW's becoming like Jonestown because of the similarities. While I personally don't agree with that particular, I can certainly understand the reason for concern.
I think you are being rude for no good reason in a discussion that merits no rudeness whatsoever.
Judge Dread said:
Anyone who thinks JW's are a threat to the world is a person who is delusional and in need of professional help.
Let me see, how about murder due to refusal of blood, abstinence from helping to make the world we live in a better place by putting their trust in door to door peddling of WT pubs as a better solution, pedophilia cover-ups, and the isolation of members from the outside world...oh and discouraging of education and being usefiul members of society under the premise that the world will end any day now. Actually, while you mention professional help, many need this upon waking up to the dangerous cult known as Jehovah's Witnesses.
The comparison to Jonestown is bulls**t.........period.
How about some hard numbers, anyone? Let's add up to date in the last hundred years all of the young children who have died due to the inability to take blood against their will, all of the adults who walked that same plank, and those who have already comitted suicide for the hell they lived in the organization.
Jones did it in one fell swoop, but the JWs have done it one person at a time. Add to that all of the recent language about absolute obedience and obligation to face death in recent literature and you can't discount the possibility. All 7 million? No, but a healthy number could suffer. The suicide might not be direct either. Subjecting people to situations could also do that at the hands of others. As for calling me a "bastard," something tells me you would be the first to mix the cool-aid, you gentle soul, you.
How many have died for the causes thet are NOT associated with the WTS? Certainly MORE than 7 million,no?
Be that as it may, you are diverting the issue. We're talking about THIS cult, these people.
You: Judge, you seriously need to research the history of the wt. You are unaware of the many jw's who did die by not taking vaccinations when the wt preached that vaccinations were from satan, you are woefully unaware of the many jw's around the world who did and do die everyday at the altar of the wt by not taking blood, you are terribly misinformed of the jw's who died and were otherwise terrorized in Malawi all because of edicts from the wt, how many jw's did not take lifesaving transplants because at one time they too were not allowed? How many went blind because they were not allowed cornea transplant that were later allowed? how many jw's commit suicide over the shunnning policies? the sexual abuse they cannot live with because some dumbass elder thought maybe as an 8yr old girl she seduced the man? or some story similiar? Men who went to jail rather than take alternative service only to be raped in jail and yes, sometimes by other jw's who later committed suicide because they think they committed homosexual acts or were othewise somehow guilty of the abuse? etc..etc..etc...The dead bodies pile up around the altar of the wt. The jw's are in fact a dangerous and deadly cult.
I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that if the gb decided on mass suicide by and large most jw's would drink that kool-aid.
ME: BRAVO!!!!!Well said, except for the next part.
I do agree that they would not hand down such 'new light' because they are a corporation and the money, power and control is in fact what drives them.
Times are good, now. What happens when they go bad, if the economy takes a serious dive, and the money and power wanes? Jones had lots of money and power, he was a major political force in California. These are old men running the show. What happens if the noose tightens around them and the authorities expose them for what they really are? Nothing is out of the realm of possibility. What if litigation starts to unravel them? It is not just about suicide but also murder. Those 300 kids didn't commit suicide. The 7 million could be put at risk to suffer consequences in the same way.
ummmm instead of hijacking Jonathan's thread....
Not a problem with me at all. Let's air this thing out, now. There is too much at stake.
We are all entitled to our opinions, and I agree with you that the potential is there. However, the sheer semantics of what you are suggesting would make it impossible to pull off in JW land.
Times are good, now. What happens when they go bad, if the economy takes a serious dive, and the money and power wanes? Jones had lots of money and power, he was a major political force in California. These are old men running the show. What happens if the noose tightens around them and the authorities expose them for what they really are? Nothing is out of the realm of possibility.
Times aren't good for the borg, they have most of their NYC properties up for sale and are planning a long term move in to rural NY state.
I think the scenario you describe isn't likely to happen, and if it does happen, won't occur for a good 15-20 years. At that point the JW movement will have had to change so much, that it won't be the same that it has been till now.
You simply can't get 7 million people to do what happened in Jonestown. This doesn't mean they aren't a cult. It means that they are a substantially different kind of cult.
In addition, to say that JW's are like Jonestown makes them look more mainstream. Most people know JW's, and they see them out knocking on doors. To make such spectacular opinions add's to their arsenal, and takes away from your arguments.
JW's teach that suicide is self murder, so why do you think that they are going to change that? It isn't going to happen.
You are right of course about blood, even though JW's have won the right to kill themselves by not taking blood. But that number is not significant, as unfortuante as it is.
As you say, nothing is out of the realm of possibility. Having said that, what you propose is hardly a reasonable possibility, with all due respect.