Sylvia- interesting stuff in that thread you posted. Yeah in Michigan where I'm from, the congregations were 98% black, I mean about 30 of em. And I never knew anybody that REALLY shunned anybody, but I speak only for those I know, not as a general consensus.
Confusion
by tryingtoexit 25 Replies latest jw friends
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jonathan dough
Maybe you could take the offensive. See if they really know what their faith teaches. I suspect they don't have a clear picture of it. Here is a summary you could use:
Remember, once you pin them to the wall they will just end the discussion. Don't let them shift the burden to you or divert you from issues you raise, which is a typical JW responses.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html#I
Here is a handy summary:
Every now and then the Jehovah's Witnesses make significant changes to their doctrine that reach to the very core of their belief system. As such, it can be a real challenge to pinpoint exactly what they believe from one year to the next. The changes they make are to be expected given the weakenesses in their dogma and the need to accommodate mountains of theological criticism. Invariably those changes bump up against other points of Society doctrine resulting in an ever-growing tangled mass of contradictions. Due to the nature of these shifting sands one should take their asserted beliefs with a grain of salt.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 people go to heaven (Reasoning from the Scriptures (Reasoning) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1985], 166). They are the bride of Christ, God’s children, the elect, and often referred to as the “anointed” of Christ (Insight on the Scriptures (Insight), 2 vols. [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1988], 786). The New Testament Greek Scriptures (New Testament) were written primarily to, and for the benefit of, these brothers of Christ. They are specially chosen because they live especially good lives while on earth (Insight, 786-788). Once resurrected to heaven, a process which began in 1918 and will soon be concluded (the first resurrection) (Revelation - Its Grand Climax at Hand (Revelation Climax), [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 19__] 103, 277) they will become a kingdom of priests and kings who will rule with Christ for one thousand years over humans on earth (Insight, 170, 524, 525).
This reign will involve their judging resurrected humans during the thousand year reign, and after the thousand year reign when resurrected mankind will undergo a final decisive test before being destroyed forever or having their names written permanently in God’s book, or scroll, of life (Insight, 251, 788). Whereas the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven as spirit creatures, all other billions of humans worthy of the resurrection during the thousand year reign will be resurrected as corrupt flesh and blood humans with the possibility of immortality on earth (Reasoning, 333-336; Insight, 251). During the thousand year reign the Great Crowd will engage in “perfecting” resurrected humans to a sinless condition enjoyed by Adam and Eve before the fall (Reasoning, 337, 338).
The Great Crowd (or large multitude) is a term found at Revelation 7:9. The Great Crowd are those Jehovah’s Witnesses who survive the Great Tribulation. They do not die, do not need to be resurrected and are declared righteous through faith (Insight, 788) although it appears as though they also must pass a final, decisive test to gain eternal life (Insight., 251). Most Jehovah’s Witnesses today consider themselves to be members of the Great Crowd and according to their interpretation of Revelation 7:9-17 they will always be earthly, not heavenly, subjects of the kingdom of heaven (or kingdom of God). As to those Jehovah’s Witnesses who are not of the 144,000 and do not survive the Great Tribulation, it is believed they will be resurrected in God’s due time (Insight, 788).The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that when Jesus Christ died and rose to heaven to sit on God’s throne he began to reign only as king over his congregation of 144,000 followers who at the time were still earthly subjects of this spiritual kingdom (Insight, 524). This rule began with Christ’s blood sacrifice which was initiated pursuant to the much-anticipated New Covenant which replaced the old Mosaic Law covenant (Law covenant). This New Covenant, to which only God, Christ and the 144,000 are parties, will expire shortly after the last of the 144,000 are resurrected to heaven (Insight, 524). The only people who have their sins forgiven through Christ's blood sacrifice from the time of Adam until the beginning of the thousand year reign are the 144,000 (Insight, 736).
The real kingdom of God, a much larger, expansive and lengthier kingdom, began in 1914 (the 1914 kingdom) when Christ supposedly sat on the throne to begin his rule over mankind (Insight, 169). Jesus, being a mere angel (Reasoning, 218) created hundreds of millions of years ago, only receives a subsidiary share of this kingdom of God (Insight, 169). 1914 A.D. is arguably the most important date in the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ belief system because it is the year that Jesus returned, or arrived (Great Man, ch. 133, 2; Reasoning, 344), to earth. This was the invisible Second Coming of Christ, or “parousia.” It also heralded the beginning of the first of three judgment days.
We are currently in the first judgment day period. Under the guidance of the remaining earthly anointed 144,000, the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses were taught that they were separating the earth’s sheep and goats through their door-to-door ministry (The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived) (Great Man) [New York, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1991] chapter 111, 12-15). This fundamental doctrine, however, changed in 1995. The separation of sheep and goats has been postponed, for now, until a time after the Great Tribulation begins (The Watchtower, Oct. 15, 1995, pg. 23). The sheep join God’s one and only earthly organization, thus becoming members of the Great Crowd (if they survive the Great Tribulation) and earn the opportunity to live life everlasting; all the goats, those who do not heed their invitation, will be destroyed forever during the Great Tribulation and Armageddon with no prospect of resurrection (Ibid.).
The only humans who survive the Great Tribulation and Armageddon, where all the enemies of God are destroyed, are members of the Great Crowd of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Ibid.); no one else. Then begins the thousand year reign of Christ and the 144,000 over the earth’s Great Crowd and the righteous and unrighteous - at least those who merit the resurrection during the thousand years (Reasoning, 339-340). This general resurrection during the millennium is the second resurrection according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses. One of the tasks of the Great Crowd during this peaceful thousand year reign is to restore post-apocalyptic earth to a paradise-like condition. The Great Crowd also assists in educating the 20 billion resurrected dead to the will of God, to get to know Jesus, and to live in accordance with new laws and regulations revealed through the Law Scrolls of God opened at Revelation 20:12 (Insight, 788). The purpose of educating the resurrected is to lift them to a state of perfection on par with Adam and Eve’s sinless state of perfection they enjoyed before rebelling against Jehovah God (Ibid.).
The second judgment day period occurs during the thousand year reign. “Perfected” humans, now only corruptible rather than corrupt when resurrected, are tested and judged based not on their deeds and works in their previous lives (the one we experience today) but on their deeds during the thousand year reign (Ibid.). They believe this because all men are allegedly acquitted of sin in this life and pay for their sins with the wages of death (Insight, 788; Reasoning, 338). Therefore, the only deeds or sins for which they can be put on judgment for are those committed during the thousand year reign, and their conduct during the final test after the thousand years.
The final test of their fidelity begins after the thousand year reign, the third judgment day, when those remaining perfected humans are confronted with the unleashing of Satan from the abyss and all which that entails. If they pass the test successfully they will have their names permanently written in the scroll, or book, of life. If they fail they are cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second Death, that is, eternal destruction (Insight, 251).
Thereafter, the services of Christ, the angel, are no longer required. He is no longer needed as a helper in terms of a propitiatory sacrifice, nor as a legal intermediary between God and man. Accordingly, he is dispensed with in this regard (Insight, 170).
The Jehovah's Witnesses believe with all sincerity that they "have the truth" and "are in the truth." However given the very significant repudiation of past doctrines that have formed the essential core of their beliefs for over one hundred years it is doubtful they can make that claim. If their "truth" is not the "truth" by their own admission then their theories were false.
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leavingwt
I have been where you're at. When it all washes out, you can leave AND keep your family -- by not telling them why you're leaving.
It will be a win-win. In the future, perhaps an opportunity will open up to reveal small things to individuals. Perhaps not.
I just want you to know you have many more options than the one you're leaning towards. This option has very predictable results. You may be their only child. However, you'll soon be their only apostate child. They will be under tremendous pressure by OTHER people, in regards to associating with you. This is the component that you cannot control.
Example: if you dad is a servant or an elder, he "cannot" associate with an apostate. He may WANT to. But, to maintain his status -- he will not. He cannot. do you see this example of the group dynamic that can impact your life?
If you leave WITHOUT becoming an apostate, they can associate with you as they'd like, whenever they'd like. They can publicly associate with you. They can invite you to their home without drawing suspicion, etc.
Here's the thing: It will cost you nothing to take this approach, FIRST. If you don't like the results of fading/stopping (without outing yourself as an apostate), you can always revert to that.
However, once this bell has been rung, there is no unringing it.
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snowbird
And I never knew anybody that REALLY shunned anybody
Same here.
Sylvia
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jonathan dough
Here's the thing: It will cost you nothing to take this approach, FIRST. If you don't like the results of fading/stopping (without outing yourself as an apostate), you can always revert to that.
However, once this bell has been rung, there is no unringing it.
Good point. It allows you to get their ear and help get them out and see the true light. If they can't listen they won't listen.
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leavingwt
I don't know, LWT, they may not shun him.
I would be overjoyed if this were to be the case.
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tryingtoexit
Thanks for the replies, gotta head out, will respond in a few hours
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Jomavrick
Dear Confusion:
It seems to me you had better start from scratch and whiteboard your understanding of the many assumptions that religions make. It seems you are automatically accepting the ideal that there is an end of the world event coming. Why do you accept that premise?
I always recommend that people start with a fresh slate and ask yourself, what can I prove to myself that may be factual and actually makes sense to me.
I think you will find that journey leads to real enlightenment free from the chains and entanglements of man made religions,,,,,,
Jo
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AGuest
May you have peace! I would like to respond, if I may. Thank you!
What happens after the birds have the Great Meal Of God?
Unfortunately, I do not yet have the freedom to share what I haveeen given regarding this event, other than that what takes place in Revelation Chapters 16 through 19 is from the time of immediately after the great tribulation and my Lord's return... up TO "Armageddon" (whic occurs more than 1,000 years later... and that it is the "inspired expressions" of the false prophet, the wild beast, and the dragon that "gather" Gog and Magog TO the place called HarMageddon... and God's War (Revelation 16:13, 14, 16; 19:20; 20:7-10)
What happens after the Great Tribulation and Armageddon??
You must first realize that these are not the same event. Indeed, t hey are at least 1,000 years apart, with the great tribulation occurring first, then the War of God Almighty occuring, at the PLACE called HarMaggedon… over 1,000 years later, as follows:
Immediately after the great tribulation, Christ returns to gather his chosen ones, both those who have died, and those who have not died. The former, he resurrects to spirit bodies (the “first” resurrection) at the same time that he changes the latter to spirit bodies. Thus, “he that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all.” Mathew 24:29-31; 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
Such ones are taken to the spirit realm where they are joined to him (“married”) in spirit. Thus, he and they become ONE SPIRIT… as a man and wife become one flesh. Satan is abyssed. Revelation 19:7; 20:1-3
After the marriage takes place, New Jerusalem “comes down out of heaven” TO THE EARTH, meaning, the sons of God ARE REVEALED… and all of these, Christ and those who belong to him, his “Bride”… sit down on thrones to begin separating the “sheep” from the “goats.” The “sheep” will be granted entry to the “marriage feast”; the “goats” will be prohibited from entry and thus must remain “outside” the Holy City [of New Jerusalem]. This process takes “a thousand years.” Revelation 21:2; Romans 8:19; Revelation 20:4; 19:11-16; 5:9, 10; Matthew 25:31-46; Revelation 21:9-21
At the end of the 1,000 years Satan is loosed and goes out to mislead the goats (Gog) and the spirits that sinned (Magog) into thinking they can come against and gain access into the Holy City. Why? Because if they can get “inside” they can eat from the Tree of Life, which is in the MIDST of the City… and live forever. That City, again, is people… as is the Tree of Life, which is Christ, the True Vine, the Root of Jesse. Satan misleads them into thinking that they can access Christ… through his people. The MOST Holy One of Israel, however, does not let that happen. Rather, He allows them to get CLOSE (gathered to the place… called Harmaggedon)… in preparation for HIS War (the War of the Great Day of God Almighty)… which culminates in fire coming from HIM… and destroying these, Gog and Magog. Satan is thrown into Gehenna. Revelation 20:7-10; Revelation 16:14, 16
After this, Christ HANDS THE KINGDOM BACK OVER TO THE FATHER… 1 Corinthians 15:24
And THEN Judgment Day begins (and it is NOT set at 1,000 years):
a. The MOST Holy One of Israel sits down on HIS throne; Revelation 20:11; Daniel 7:9
b. And He is given two (2) sets of scrolls; Revelation 20:12; Daniel 7:10
c. The SECOND resurrection occurs; Revelation 20:5, 12, 13; Ezekiel 37:1-14
d. These are either given life… or judgment and condemnation, resulting in everlasting destruction; Revelation 20:12, 13, 15
e. And the “last enemy” Death is brought to nothing; Revelation 20:14; 1 Corinthians 15:26
After which the kingdom is given FULLY over to Christ… who, because he now FULLY INHERITS the kingdom… moves from the RIGHT HAND of God… ONTO GOD’S THRONE… from which he rules… forever and ever. Because, through HIM (Christ)… the MOST Holy One of Israel, God, JAH of Armies… will all things IN all and TO all. Daniel 7:13, 14; 2:44; Psalm 110:1; Revelation 21:22, 23; 22:1
Why would God do so much on earth if everybody is suppose to go to heaven anyway???
"Everybody" is not supposed to go to heaven, but only a few. And even those are slated to STAY in heaven, per se. What will occur is that the spiritual realm (heaven) and physical realm (earth) will be brought together again, as it was in the day of Adham... with beings being able to go in and out among the two... just like the angels.
I hope this helped and bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SA
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Chalam
Hi TTE,
OK, Christians will tell you if they die they will go to heaven. This is correct. However, will they spend eternity there? OK, a few verses to clear the matter up and put straight the WT falsehood too.
Acts 7:59-60 (New International Version)
59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.
Stephen, died. Where did his spirit go? If left his body and went to be with the Lord. Where is He? Jesus is in heaven Acts 1:11
See here for another example
Luke 23:43 (New International Version)
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
And here
2 Corinthians 5:6-9 (New International Version)
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
Now is the spirit conscious when it is "away from the body"? Paul was clearly conscious when he went to see the Lord or he would not have learned a thing.
2 Corinthians 12 (New International Version)
Paul's Vision and His Thorn
1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations
Why also would he say this?!
Philippians 1:21-24 (New International Version)
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
OK, more on the consciousness of the dead Hebrews 11
Why is Abel dead but still speaks? Hebrews 11:4
And what about Enoch? He is in the same place as Abel and never died? Hebrews 11:5
I guess you get the picture.
So where will all believers spend eternity? One place, Revelation 21
Notice they are on the new earth in the new Jerusalem with God, not in heaven as the dwelling has come down "out of heaven" Revelation 21:2 Revelation 21:10
All the best,
Stephen