Question for elder/ex-elders (page 3)

blondie

I don't understand why the same questions weren't asked of the men as to having sex outside marriage (including rape)?

willyloman

There are two possible answers:

1. They are untrained, unread, and uneducated and have no business being in the position of counseling someone, much less sitting in judgement.

2. They are perverts on a power trip.

I was chairman on a JC in such a case. We asked the young woman to tell us what the circumstances were and she said she had committed fornication. One of the elders started questioning her: "Did you have intercourse? How many times." When she replied, he said, "Did you enjoy it?"

Before she could answer, I announced we were going to take a break to discuss some procedural matters. After she left the room, I asked the guy, "What kind of question is that? What are you thinking?"

He said he was just trying to get enough information to "read her heart." I told him she had confessed and that the matter of repentance could be decided on her subsequent actions. Did she stop seeing him? Why did she come forward and confess to us? Whether or not she "enjoyed it" was prurient and totally out of line. The third elder in the room finally spoke up and said, "He's right."

We brought her back in and continued the JC. The aforementioned elder held himself in check for the duration.

This kind of thing is very common and unless there is someone on the committee to object, this line of questioning can go on and on. I've heard many pathetic accounts, and witnessed one when I was a young elder too surprised and shocked to speak up.

If these things were televised or recorded, the dub myth that elders are somehow operating under the direction of holy spirit would disappear overnight.

OnTheWayOut

Blondie, sometimes the same questions are asked of men as women. But we are getting back to the "pretty sister" issue again.
Somehow, there are many uptight elders that enjoy putting a sister through the ringer more than a man. But don't think they don't ask men the same stuff. But for their jollies, men want to hear the sister tell the details.

It's easy to see that men can enjoy a man telling them how he touched a woman "there." But isn't it easier to see how men can enjoy the actual woman in their presence talking about touching a man "there" or how the man touched her "there" ? Sure, it's wrong wrong wrong. But these men are so wound up from being in a cult, from having such puritan marriages themselves- it's got to be like Jehovah-approved pornography for a sister to talk about being aroused by ....(dirty details).

WTS already admits they have a huge problem with pornography.

jah1914

Spot on Willyloman, at the end of the day it just depends on the guys in the room. That type of detail questioning never flied with me and I would always stop brothers that got to detailed.

Fernando

Dear Tweetiebird

Your friend is fortunate to have you as someone who cares about her situation.

As "minimus" suggested it would seem the whole JC process is deeply flawed.

This is especially so in the search for evidence of past or present unrepentance. One first has to commit the sin of unrepentance (turning away from God) to enable one to commit any other sin. So every single person who has committed a serious sin is also guilty of the sin of unrepentance. Therefore one cannot and should not be disfellowshipped for past or present unrepentance, but rather for "persistent unrepentance".

So it would seem the correct procedure can be summed up as follows: "A person should only be disfellowshipped as a means of last resort if all reasonable and patient efforts to counsel the person to repentance have failed". If I were still a member I would only confess to a JC who actually believed and practiced this - doubt such a JC exists though, and doubt that this is GB policy.

The best counselling to repentance is by means of the true gospel which elders neither believe or teach. It can really touch someone's heart when they really understand what repentance on the basis of faith in the ransom sacrifice is. It is so awesomely liberating to understand that Jesus has paid for ALL my sins, past, present and future. I am and remain (for now) in a fallen, sinful captive state and cannot ever prove, earn or deserve a righteous standing before God. I am fully dependant on his mercy and "undeserved kindness" (grace) which he expresses to me a sinner by COUNTING me as righteous by IMPUTING Jesus Christ's righteousness to me on the basis of my repentance (of my fallen condition and sins) and on the basis of my FAITH in Jesus' high-priesthood (liberator/deliverer, atoner/reconciler, saviour).

Since few if any elders believe in the true gospel God cannot impute righteousness to them. They therefore do not meet the requirement of being righteous. They therefore cannot be led by the Holy Spirit. Especially since they deny anyone but a small group of less than 9,000 worldwide can be sons of god (by imputation).

Romans 8:14 NW: "For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons". Titus 1:8 NW: "...but hospitable, a lover of goodness, sound in mind, righteous, loyal, self-controlled...".

Philippians 3:7-9 NW: "Yet what things were gains to me, these I have considered loss on account of the Christ. Why, for that matter, I do indeed also consider all things to be loss on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord. On account of him I have taken the loss of all things and I consider them as a lot of refuse, that I may gain Christ and be found in union with him, having, not my own righteousness, which results from law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness that issues from God on the basis of faith. . .

Certainly then at a minimum your friend should first enquire of three elders she trusts, if they are able to confirm that they are "righteous"? If they say yes, she should ask them on what basis they say so? If they then list all their good works, give them a wide berth - this is "works righteousness" and is Pharisaical and from Satan. If they confess being COUNTED as righteous by IMPUTATION (this is scriptural "gifts righteousness") she might consider further enquiring of them how they arrive at disfellowshipping decisions in relation to un/repentance.

A very viable alternative is for her to pray for Jesus Christ to lead her to the true gospel and to repentance and to faith. This is actually the only way to obtain a clean conscience which men CANNOT give to one. Least of all if they are blind guides as the elders in Jesus day were.

Over many decades I have never met a single elder that even knows what the true gospel is, although it is nearly fully defined in Isaiah 61:1 and w79 12/15 pp. 5-6: This “good news” is primarily the message that salvation or everlasting life is possible on the basis of genuine faith in the atoning benefits of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, and that God’s kingdom by Christ will bring all things on earth into perfect unity with the holy heavens [aka restoration].

Christian greetings and love

May Jehovah God continue to bless you and your friend on your spiritual journeys

Fernando

TweetieBird

Thank you for all of the replies. My friend has decided to let them know that she has been having a sexual relationship with someone and that she is not planning on stopping. That's all they get. She has also stated that the organization seems cultish sometimes.

cattails

One elder said to the girl, "So you like for boys to touch you, eh?"

Whatta perv!

I would have said back "Was that a Freudian slip? Did you mean to say YOU like to touch boys? or Is it girls YOU like to touch?"

Of course that would be grounds for DF'ing for uncleaness of speech for saying it to an elder.

To WillyLoman and Fernando: I really enjoy reading your posts!

dissed

In my cases, I only heard one Elder go to far on his questioning.

His explaination to us? A CO told him to do it to check for two things, honesty, forthrightness and the level of morale depravity.

He was over the top, but before I could say something, the other Elder told him it wasn't necessary.

Was he a pervert? No, he really thought he was doing his job as instructed to, although I had the same CO's and never heard it explained that way at any Elders meetings.

So does it happen? Sure, but it seems like the minority to me.

arnoldM

so comfusing ....all i need someone to trust and chat...mature elder preferably or bethel one

wantstoleave

I remember being asked if I enjoyed it when I confessed how I was forced by my fiance to have sex. I think they asked that because the rape wasn't where I was held and pinned down, it was more of an obligatory pressure kind of rape. I was baring my soul, already in tears and feeling utterly ashamed as I sat there alone with 3 men in my house. And I was asked if I enjoyed having sex? I think I huffed back a 'What? I was forced!'. I never did say yes or no.

I've heard of cases where the female has been asked things like the colour of her panties, how short her skirt was, was she flirting with her eyes, were the lights on or off when it happened, how many times did she orgasm....etc

Question for elder/ex-elders

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