Question for elder/ex-elders

by TweetieBird 29 Replies latest jw friends

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  designs

  A Pastor or counselor of any Denomination has to be careful how they conduct their sessions with a congregant. It is not the same as in a therapist's session with a client where you often take a complete history of the person and counseling may last for months and even years.

  The Elders booklet I still have gave some guidelines for shepherding calls and judicial meetings. The main problem for most Elders was the lack of proper training in dealing with people who are having some crisis in their lives. To many things were left to the subjective evaluation of people untrained to evaluate events. Are you trying to just get a confession, are you trying to get some emotion like crying from an individual. To often these Elder groups would try to rush to quarantine what they percieved to be a dangerous influence and Disfellowship someone who really needed the support and long term counseling efforts from their religion at a critical moment in their life.
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  Nostromo

  Designs, thats absolutely true, the truck-driver and mailman elders usually dont have the training for this kind of stuff.

  Anyway, though there have been lots of horrible cases where young girls have been humiliated with all kind of intimate questions by some (pervert) elders, not all the elders are like that. In fact, I remember one JC session of a young girl. The chairman asked her like this: "so tell us what happened" and then he emphasized: "there is no need to go into any details". Then she said something like "we did the whole thing". And then this elder asked if they had had sex only on one occasion or several times and she answered that. And that was it, no more questions about the actual act.

  After that the JC just wanted to see if she understood that it was wrong what she had done (she had confessed herself) and she promised not to do it again. Private reproof and that was it.

  The next meeting this girl looked like a different person, she was all smiling and happy so apparently she actually got some relief from this whole procedure. I think it was handled quite okay in this case.

  So it really depends on what kind of men there happen to be in the committee.
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  quietlyleaving

  I think the questions help elders be objective and clinical as in a psychoanalytical setting but JW elders have to rely on holy spirit to give them the expertise.

  But I think the main reason for drawing out the procedure is to distance themselves from the catholic church's method of granting absolution which they despise.
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  designs

  Nostromo, yes, there were some very good descent men that served as Elders and tried to genuinely help people in a time of crisis.

  It was learning to see beyond the immediate crisis that you could really help someone to alter their life. It wasn't really about the adultery or drugs or whatever at the moment event brought a person to you it was the journey up to then that was the real story.
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  yknot

  ....ummm genetically prohibited from being an Elder.....

  HOWEVER here is a copy of the Elder Manual that was provided generously by a JWN poster whom I forget but do want to pass on credit too!

  http://www.4shared.com/file/62487460/676fa4ef/1991-Pay-Attention-Elders-Manual_with_NOTES.html
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  Quandry

  And then there are the elders who presided at a fifteen year old's JC (her parents told my husband and I) who wanted to know what kind of panties she was wearing and wanted some brought to them so they could see them. (The parents said no)

  One elder said to the girl, "So you like for boys to touch you, eh?"
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  dozy

  I was on the JC for quite a few immorality cases and we didn't pry for every detail , so this isn't true of all elders.

  I do know an elder in a neighbouring congregation that always volunteers for all such cases , especially those involving young courting couples. He always asks very personal questions. A very dirty , sleazy man who should have been removed years ago.
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  OnTheWayOut

  There is the obvious reasons they ask more questions of "sisters," especially the nicer looking ones.

  But I want to offer the reason they think they ask these questions.
  Generally, they think they are actually being used by Jehovah to determine how to help the person or how to keep the congregation clean and put them out. The WTS training tells them to determine if it is weakness or wickedness. The elders feel they can determine just how repentant the person is or just how wicked the person is by having them state the details, particularly how far the one instance went that made them come forward.

  So, if a person was involved in heavy petting and it led to intercourse, then they felt bad and ended the thing, elders will generally feel this person is repentant and gave in to weakness. If a person had been counseled in the past, they might want to know what caused them to ignore counsel before they make such determination. Somehow, opening clothing or removing clothing makes a difference. Touching with hands or orally makes a difference. Momentary contact or groping makes a difference.

  It's part of a power trip of self delusion. The training and their position actually makes the elders think they can determine what holy spirit is telling them by the members' answers to such questions. Some elders are not on such power trips and will know that fornication took place- that's all they needed to know.
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  xelder

  Elder: Are you pregnant (or Is she pregnant?)

  person: no

  Elder: How do you know?

  person: we used a condom

  Elder: Oh, so you planned to do this. It wasn't that you were just overcome.

  These types of questions are supposed to pry into motive
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  minimus

  I agree with what OTWO said except for this thought. When I became an elder on 1/1/80, the elders who taught me the ropes were quite clear that they were instructed to ask specific "probing" questions to determine whether someone was being totally honest. If an immoral person were to remain in the congregation, it could cause ill effects. I believe these elders asked certain personal questions because of their instructions from elder's schools and COs.

  Look at the prevailing decades old view that if a sister claimed to be raped and didn't scream, she might not even get a ressurection. The view was that she could've asked for it by her revealing dress or inappropriate manners. That was the mindset in the Organization. "Determining repentance" involved understanding all the details so as to come to a proper decision. Of course, the whole JC process is flawed. Why anyone has to answer to any man is beyond me!