Why 2 witnesses to a sin?

kevin221

I've read several posts lately that define what exactly can or can't get someone in trouble with the JW's and I'm a little confused. How does the 2 witnesses to a sin thing work? Let me explain why I'm asking.

About 7 years ago a friend of Jon's that he has known as a child contacted him via telephone. They had been close friends until Jon left the JW's. She was having serious trouble with her husband, who Jon also knew, and she was afraid because he had beaten her and she had been told by the elders that they couldn't do anything to help her. She asked her parents if she could stay with them and they said they couldn't let her because that would be interfering in her marriage.(that made absolutely no sense to me) Jon offered for her to come and stay as our guest for a few days to sort out her thoughts and she accepted. Her father found out that she was staying with us and contacted the elders and they called our house and told her that she had been accused of adultery. She told the person on the phone that she was only staying with friends and that nothing had happened but they said that they had two witnesses, her parents, stating that she was staying in a house with two men and that they had to assume that she had sinned.

To make a very long story short, she was disfellowshipped. The final reason the elders gave her was that she kept denying anything had happened even though they knew she had spent several nights in our home. Here is the part I don't understand. She was staying in the home of two "known homosexuals", so who in the world did they think she was sinning with? Also, why is it that a man in that religion can beat his wife and she shows up at church with bruises and they don't do anything about it?

I'm trying to expand my understanding of the JW religion so any input would be appreciated.

Kevin

Billygoat

Your friend's story is a classic Kangaroo court that JW's practice. Evidence of a woman having been beaten (bruises, broken bones, black eyes) means nothing. But hearsay from two people that have no proof is enough to convict on a trumped up charge. What is this? Alice in Wonderland? Someone in another thread said their typical response when an accuser comes forward is "Off with her head!" before they even know who it is or what the circumstances are! Ugh. I cannot believe I used to be a part of this organization. Makes me so incredibly sick, sick, sick! [>:(]

Andi

Valis

Having two witnesses is used to validate the absurd idea that people should be kicked out for most things, althoug abuse, sexual predation, and things that serious are the exception. I mean to say that two witnesses is supposed to rule out direct heresay by one individual, somehow giving the appearance of fairness. The other concept that might need to be remembered is that the bodies of elders I have ever had contact are very chauvanist and will almost always believe for instance a father that says his daughter has commited significant wrongdoing. Such inequalities abound in JWland and have little if anything to do with your actions toward your friend, albeit right and obviously a needed display of friendship.

oscartheduck

I was recently researching the topics covered by the book "Pay Attention To Yourselves and All the Flock", which you may see referred to as the Elder's Handbook.

It states that, on a Judicial Committee, it is only acceptable if there were "" two or three eyewitnesses, not just persons
repeating what they have heard;", which means that the witnesses in this case are null according to the book they're meant to follow for direction.
THe scriptural back up for having several witnesses is:Deut. 19:15; Jol1ll 8:17

If you're interested in looking into that book yourself, you can find it posted on the web here : http://home2.inet.tele.dk/carloc/

============================
The Watchtower, April 15, 1928, p. 126 "As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible "

dungbeetle

((((((kevin))))))

Jehovah's Witnesses are a cult, dear....A CULT. Many years ago, they set themselves up as God's 'true organization' and God promptly abandoned them to every kind of badness there is under the sun.

To be more specific, tho; there are scriptures that state not to convict a person of something except at the mouths of two witnesses to 'a matter'. They have interpreted that to be witnesses to two separate ACTS in the cases of child molestation, but for every other matter that rule is very relaxed. Two witnesses to HEARSAY is good enough for everything else such as your friend.

How is she doing now, by the way?

And how are YOU doing..

BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!

kevin221

((((((((((dungbeetle)))))))))))

I'm doing ok. I've spent the last few days playing on the internet and trading snide remarks on this db with yadirf, which is kind of good at taking my mind off things.

She actually is doing great, she divorced the wifebeater and married one of my best friends about 5 years ago. I saw her yesterday when she stopped by to say hi. She brought her kids by to pick out a kitten from one of the 9 my cat Ethyl had a few weeks back. I took my eye off that damn cat for 1 minute and 3 months later, BANG a whole boat load of kittens. She's getting fixed asap after the kittens are gone.

I guess what I really don't understand is this. Both of her parents turned her in because they knew she was staying with us, but they wouldn't let her stay with them because they didn't want to interfere????? That just doesn't make any sense. And since everyone knew that Jon and I are gay, why was she charged in the first place. It's not like either one of us were going to sleep with her? But I guess you are right, cults aren't supposed to make sense so why ask why.

Take care,
Kevin

jayhawk1

cults aren't supposed to make sense so why ask why.

You got it!
Women are somewhat considered property, so a beating that does not happen in front of two baptized witnesses is not really a beating. I am glad she met someone that treats her with respect. Peace to you Kevin and I hope the next year goes much better for you.

"Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford

Jeremy's Hate Mail Hall Of Fame.
http://hometown.aol.com/onjehovahside/ and [email protected]

Scully

hi Kevin

a long time ago, when I was still a JW, my supervisor (unbeknownst to me initially) was studying with the JWs. His sister was a JW and he was staying with her and her husband & kids while he was trying to sell his house in another province and move his own wife and family here.

Long story short, when the sister found out I was a JW, she started making accusations about her brother and me having an affair. They automatically assumed that because I was a JW, a "sister", that I'd hop into bed with her brother, even though we were never in a situation where anything inappropriate could have happened. And even though I was pregnant (and quite obviously so!)

I think it's a reflection of their own self-worth.... that they'd jump at the first chance to get themselves kicked out of that cult if it came along. They would sooner trust a "worldling" in terms of two people who could possibly have sex, than one of their own.

Now that I'm thinking about the crap they put me through over it, I feel even more disgusted than I did then.

Love, Scully

PS - the need for 2 eyewitnesses is also very convenient for protecting authority figures among JWs who are pedophiles and wife beaters. (Since when do pedophiles and wife beaters seek out an audience??)

It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63

Joyzabel

PS - the need for 2 eyewitnesses is also very convenient for protecting authority figures among JWs who are pedophiles and wife beaters. (Since when do pedophiles and wife beaters seek out an audience??)

Good point Scully.

Adonai438

2 witnesses should help prove if someone is just trying to make up a story- unfortunately it just means both of them can make up a story together.
As to how they can ignore and cover up such offenses?
***They don't want the rest of the world to see their people can be screwed up too- they are supposed to be Jehovahs perfect organization-their hallmark is how loving, diverse and supportive they are. They wouldn't get anymore new recruits that way.
***They don't want their own people to know how screwed up they can be because they might lose them.
The sad bottom line is that they pick their favorite in the situation- the one who sticks by the WT- and make the other person (victim or not) the criminal and punish them.

Why 2 witnesses to a sin?

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