PSac wrote: So, what are we to conclude from Revelation? since the end was NOT at hand nor did it come quickly? or did it? or is it?
Perhaps the end came "invisibly"...sorry, just can't help myself...
What do you think about Revelation?
by wantstoleave 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Olin Moyles Ghost
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PSacramento
Olin Moyles Ghost,
Now you did it !!
LOL !
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snowbird
The end of the Jewish system?
I hate using system, but I can't think of a synonym.
Sylvia
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Leolaia
Interesting! I am off now to research the Late Date Theory (95/96 C.E.) and the Early Date Theory (before 70.CE) - never even knew there was a controversy there. There's just SO MANY DANG CONTROVERSIES, once you start looking! I guess that makes a BIG difference in the fulfillment aspect...
I think the two may not be incompatible. Revelation shows signs of redaction and compositeness (see Aune's commentary for a complete discussion), particularly when you compare the epistolary frame in ch. 1-3, 21-22 with the material in between. One common approach is to propose that there were two editions of the book, one dating much earlier than the latter (with the book taking its final form at the end of the first century AD). My personal opinion at present is that much of the oracular material may antedate AD 70 but that the first edition was put together during the reign of Vespasian, either before AD 70 or shortly after it. This draws on the sequence of Roman emperors implicit in ch. 12-17. Then the book was completed as a second edition early in the reign of Domitian, partly on the strength of the prediction coming true that Titus ruled briefly, and also amid fears that the Nero redidivus was coming back. A date for the first edition during the reign of Vespasian also fits with the time when expectations of Nero redivivus were widely held and when the goddess Roma was depicted on official coinage in a manner similar to the harlot in ch. 17. But all of this is quite tenuous and speculative.
Sooooo ... it seems that the readers of Revelation and the listeners were to expect the imminent return of the Lord.
This was very common in the first century AD....you can read in Paul how he expected his readers to experience the parousia and the resurrection. And ch. 21 of John relates how Christians had to adjust their understanding of whether certain people would not die before Jesus returns.
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PSacramento
Yes, I recall the conversation we had about 1 and 2 Thessolonians and the possible "clearing up" of what was implied as the "iminent" coming of the Lord.
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Chalam
Hi Jeff,
I wonder if Christian theists would allow someone like me to take a book at face value and judge it when it includes
- Visions no one but John saw
Revelation 1:10 (English Standard Version)
10 ( I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet
John was "in the Spirit", i.e. he saw things as the Holy Spirit enabled him. He might have had his eyes closed and seen them with his minds eye or had an open vision and see the vision even when his eyes were open. The latter is less common. The former is a far more common gift of the Spirit.
Other biblical characters have seen some of the same things as John described. My wife has seen some of the things John described Acts 2:17
- Visions of heaven
Not uncommon. My wife has seen various things.
- Visions of dragons and wild beasts with numbers stamped on it.
- Visions of a whore being torn to shreds and killed by said wild beasts.
- Visions of the 12 tribes of Israel that do not match the tribes of Exodus (maybe he forgot the last 2?)
There is an explanation for that, you can search it out if you want to. The 12 tribes are mentioned in various places in the bible and one name changes.
- Warnings in the last chapter not to add or take away from these scrolls.... (pretty intimidating)
Of course, the question is that for the book of Revelation or for the whole bible (Revelation being the last book)? I discussed that with a Mormon at my door with the "Book of The Mormon" attached to the bible as one book in his hand.
So if I were to take just that sampling at face value.... Well, let me ask you this: If any religious leader from any denomination wrote Revelation today and claimed it as coming from god.....
....how do you think it would be received? As valid? Or would we write it off as crazy talk?
Sure, the same argument could be valid for Peter's vision which opened the door to the Gentiles Acts 10
Or Paul's vision 2 Corinthians 12 where the Lord likely gave him several "mysteries" Ephesians 3:3 that he revealed in his letters 1 Corinthians 15:51 Romans 11:25
Then why do some insist on taking it seriously just because it became the caboose of a bunch of old scrolls that became known as "The Bible"?
Because so many things that the bible has prophesied have happened so accurately in perfect detail. Consider the scattering of the Jews throughout the world and their return and rebirth of their nation after WWII for example.
Sure, Revelation is pretty wild. However, many things within it are actually mentioned elsewhere in the bible. Daniel's visions for example.
Forget all the hogwash the WT told you and have a look for yourself. Check out this version Book of Revelation
I have used this version in Revelation much but the extensive cross references should reinforce what I am saying. Much of it is not that new, just more detail.
All the best,
Stephen
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AllTimeJeff
Sure, Revelation is pretty wild. However, many things within it are actually mentioned elsewhere in the bible. Daniel's visions for example.
Stephen, I love ya buddy, but lets not damn Revelation with the faint praise that it resembles Daniel.... lol
Anywhoo, if you like, that makes me happy. (and I mean that...) :-)
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cantleave
Psychotic Parrot said:
You could think of it as the 1st/2nd century equivelent of the Harry Potter books.
Could it be in 1800 years time the prophetess Rowling will be revered as a messenger of the almighty? Will religions be built on her writings?
Will wars will be fought over who has the truthn aboiut who Harry the the great Potter really is? Imagine a large proportion of the human race be expecting the second coming of the bespectacled, birth marked, manipulator of clay from the region of cupboard under the stairs?
Will there be an annual observance of Quidditch?
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AllTimeJeff
Stephen
I was a little bit sarcastic, I am sorry.
Having said that, I doubt very seriously that being born again is in my future, but as always, I appreciate your take on things....