@Chalam
John 3:3 came to my mind -- JW's deny being born again (unless they are anointed)
Will some Jehovah's Witnesses inherit God's Kingdom?
by asilentone 39 Replies latest watchtower bible
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yknot
Again like I said earlier ......
Each side can and often will quote their favorite scriptures they find in support of their personal interpretative beliefs.....
Stephen are you saying YOUR interpretated way is the ONLY way...... and if so how does that really differ from the WTS mindset of totality?
And what about the thief? He never professes to be 'born again' only faith in Jesus.....
You really should discern the separation of WTS and individual JW and stop lumping all together without variance especially at this point in WTS history......or it could stumble the very people you are hoping to preach too.
I personally am as turned off by YOUR totality as I was by the local Southern Baptists shunning and cruel teasing of me and others for not being SB. Oddly enough my husband is SB and we attend the very congregation that did these things, acted in such ways that are totally UnXian..... but even after all the horrible behavior that still persists among certain ones I do not dare suggest they are condemned not to inherit God's kingdom because it is not my call, I cannot read hearts, and I certainly would beg mercy for them as I would desire for my imperfect and erring self!......
But of course that really doesn't matter because according to you I have ZERO chance of being saved....... where as under my interpretative understanding you and I will both reap the rewards of following the lamb.
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Chalam
Hi ynot,
Again like I said earlier ......
Each side can and often will quote their favorite scriptures they find in support of their personal interpretative beliefs.....
Agreed. At least one party must be wrong (or both), that is what I said to my JW friend.
Stephen are you saying YOUR interpretated way is the ONLY way...... and if so how does that really differ from the WTS mindset of totality?
Well it is not my way, just the one I am following.
John 14:6 (New International Version)
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
It differs from the JW mindset in that they profess the destination, not the Way itself.
And what about the thief? He never professes to be 'born again' only faith in Jesus.....
Jesus said the thief was going straight to paradise. By his faith in Jesus he was born again.
John 3:3 (New International Version)
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "
You really should discern the separation of WTS and individual JW and stop lumping all together without variance especially at this point in WTS history......or it could stumble the very people you are hoping to preach too.
Largely, I do. My anger is against the "WT". Even the men of the governing body can come to see that "the religion" is not actually the faith written about in the New Testament. Ray Franz is testament to that.
I personally am as turned off by YOUR totality as I was by the local Southern Baptists shunning and cruel teasing of me and others for not being SB. Oddly enough my husband is SB and we attend the very congregation that did these things, acted in such ways that are totally UnXian..... but even after all the horrible behavior that still persists among certain ones I do not dare suggest they are condemned not to inherit God's kingdom because it is not my call, I cannot read hearts, and I certainly would beg mercy for them as I would desire for my imperfect and erring self!......
I think with things of eternal significance it is good to ask God and read His book and listen to His Spirit. Ask Him plain and simple "Lord, do I need to be born again"? He will answer :) Certainly do not take my word for it!
But of course that really doesn't matter because according to you I have ZERO chance of being saved....... where as under my interpretative understanding you and I will both reap the rewards of following the lamb.
Not at all! My hope and prayer is for you to be saved and many others. Also moreover that you should have the "abundant life" that Jesus promises in this life :)
John 10:10 (New International Version)
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Blessings,
Stephen
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yknot
By his faith in Jesus he was born again.
Are you under the impression that individual JWs don't profess and excerise faith in Jesus?
Because they do...... It even was a topic of discussion today after the meeting...
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Perry
To prove this, all a JW has to do is show just one scripture how their sins are forgiven outside of the New Covenant. That should be easy enough to do.... the bible is a big book.
Never had a Witness show me one.
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Chalam
Are you under the impression that individual JWs don't profess and excerise faith in Jesus?
Because they do...... It even was a topic of discussion today after the meeting...
I will answer for the JWs that I know. They see Jesus as "a god", the angel Michael, a created being, not the Creator. They neither worship Him or love Him.
After a fruitless morning spent talking to two JWs I asked Him about "what to do". He told me to read 1 Peter 2. That passage brought revelation, not only to these two ladies I had been praying for and talking to but also on a much wider sphere.
1 Peter 2 (New International Version)
The Living Stone and a Chosen People
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame." 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
"The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone," 8 and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Jesus is precious to me, I believe. He is my Lord and my God, my Saviour, my King, my Everlasting Father, my Prince of Peace, my Alpha and Omega.
For those who do not believe, they stumble because of Jesus. Also, they disobey the message of the bible.
If someone gets saved as a JW, I don't think they can stand to listen to the WT teachings for much longer. There are enough who don't get saved who couldn't stand to go back to a single WT meeting or read another publication.
My guess is this, you have some faith in Jesus. The WT would dumb that down but if you allow it to grow they would untimely disfellowship you.
The WT are at odds with the real Jesus so they have created a false one, an impostor. Jesus was never created, He is the Creator Hebrews 1
Read you bible and ask the Holy Spirit for revelation John 14:26 John 15:26 He will bring it like you will never have in a lifetime of sitting in a kingdom hall or reading WT publications.
All the best,
Stephen
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angel eyes
Yup sure many jw will be saved...aswell as many other people :)
We had a good awake on born again, cant recall the date...was this year june i think?? unsure though
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Chalam
Hello angel eyes,
We had a good awake on born again
OK cool, I have a question for you.
John 3:3 (English Standard Version)
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Matthew 6:9-11 (English Standard Version)
9 Pray then like this:
"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. 10 Your kingdom come, your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.How are you going to see the kingdom of God if you are not born again?
All the best,
Stephen
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yknot
Jesus is accepted as a creator (master worker) who was doing his father's (grand creator) wishes...... in WTSworld.
So the heart of your initial denial of inheritance for any JW was based on your personal feelings.
Stephen I feel and admire your passion even if the few points we disagree upon occassionally hide those on which we agree......Thank you for the lively commentary!
PERRY....
Here is two I found on the CD that the WTS used to support their current position in regards to forgiveness outside of an anointed only alleged convenant........
(James 2:22-23) 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called “Jehovah’s friend.”
(1 John 2:1-2) 2 My little children, I am writing YOU these things that YOU may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. 2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.
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Chalam
Hello yknot,
I stand by my personal belief that no JW will be saved and if they do come to salvation before long they will either DA themselves from the organisation or else the organisation will DF them. I think Mark passwordprotected on this board is a good example.
I think the scriptures support this belief, but hey JWs use the very same scriptures to believe the opposite. Anyhow here's some more verses
1 Peter 1 (New International Version)
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. Those born again ("new birth") have a living hope and an inheritance that lasts. Those who are not born again have no hope i.e. a dead hope and no lasting inheritance. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. Do JWs really love Jesus? Do they really believe in Him and are filled with "inexpressible joy"?10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.
The Old Testament prophesies of Jesus. The the New Testament is all about the revelation of Jesus. From cover to cover the book is about Him.
Be Holy
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
Once again, the blood of Jesus is the sacrifice. Do JWs take that sacrifice or say "no thanks"?
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.Being born again is what counts. All of us are mortal but those born again are imperishable. Conversely, those who are not born again will perish.
Jesus is accepted as a creator (master worker) who was doing his father's (grand creator) wishes...... in WTSworld.
My problem here is not with you but the WT teaching. I do not see thing in scripture. Sure, the WT will point to Proverbs 8 but then I will likely quote Colossians 1:16
It is not the "proof texts" but the conviction of the Holy Spirit that counts 1 Thessalonians 1:5
If you want read some more about if Jesus is the Creator or the created, then try this Is Jesus God's Master Worker?
All the best,
Stephen