If you want the best and most complete info on mormons, check them out. Like Free Minds of Mormonism. Jerald and Sandra Tanner http://www.utlm.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Lighthouse_Ministry
What should I say to the Mormons?
Oh my goodness thanks for that video!
But yeah it is weird how they believed and I could never get them to just stick with the Bible they referred to the The Book of Mormon all the time.
Same M.O. as the JWs, their spiritual half-brothers. JWs won't just stick to the bible either but instead refer to the WT publications to teach them what the bible is saying.
Eventually they saw I was firm with my belief and they stopped visiting. They are very nice people though. I hope God looks at their efforts though.
Of course all our efforts don't add up to much.
Isaiah 64:6 (New International Version)
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
What God is looking for is the image of His Son in us.
All the best,
bluecanary, two points for you to consider.
1. Just tell the Mormons to go away. Best for everyone.
2. Qcmber is a Mormon.
dinah: Tell 'em to pull their magic underwear over their heads and bug off.
Duh! You can't give Mormons a wedgie because their underwear is magical.
2. Qcmber is a Mormon.
No active Mormon would say what Qcmber just said:
"Mormons base their beliefs on a supposed divine experience called a testimony. The problem with a testimony is that it does not bear up to investigation. Feelings, impressions, odd dreams, coincidental experiences and so forth are not a solid foundation for believing that a mendatious 14 year old saw God or for that matter that an invisible Jesus chose some bible students in 1919. When you really dig deep testimonies / reasons for belief really fall apart."
It doesn't matter to me whether or not Mormons follow the Bible because I don't hold the Bible as an authority. What matters is whether they're a cult.
Man oh man. JW's are a cult-light compared to the Mormons. I feel bad enough about the JW cult. I would never bother with anyone more distant that immediate family helping them out of the Mormons or talking to them- and only then if I thought it was helping. I can't even get my wife out of the JW cult. Walk away from these people.
Just to clarify - I am a NOM mormon - I don't believe in any God as currently described by any religions however, I do enjoy the Mormon culture and attend services not out of religious devotion but out of cultural and social benefits.
I've been an utterly 100% devout believer and come 180 degrees to my current position. While a believer I had all sorts of discussions with people setting up the above scenarios (from a pastor with his friends and several ex-mormon books through to bible bashes with born agains and JW's). None of these experiences in and of themselves switched on any lights. As part of my own deprogramming I had to face my testimony first and deconstruct that.
I saw lots of anti-LDS videos and the above cartoon and they let themselves down by mocking rather than taking a serious tone. If you mock someone's belief you generally reinforce it.
Currently I feel the LDS church is on a knife edge and may well fall apart within my lifetime (indeed it would already have done without its social programs imo) due to the wealth of information not available previously with which to examine the presented facts. Already we see heavy de-emphasis on the Book of Abraham, blatant and uncomfortable sanitisation of the early history, rarer discussion of the imminence of the second coming and almost banned speculation of dates and also you'll almost never hear citation of archaelogical studies from Central America any more with regards to the Book of Mormon.
I feel like I need to re-emphasize my first stated reason for doing this: This is practice for when the witnesses come. It is important for me to talk to the JWs. It's just something I feel I have to do for my own peace of mind.
I write well. I do not speak well. I have an auditory processing disorder. I am very introverted and nervous in social situations. When I first saw these girls and thought they were JWs, my first reaction was panic. Having them at my house and practicing some of the questions and reasonings I want to have for the JWs will help put me at ease. I feel less pressure with them because I do not feel the need to score any points here.
Qcmbr: Just to clarify - I am a NOM mormon - I don't believe in any God as currently described by any religions however, I do enjoy the Mormon culture and attend services not out of religious devotion but out of cultural and social benefits.
That certainly is a big change since last year, when you defended the LDS rather ferociously. Care to explain how this change came about? Your explanation would certainly be of benefit to bluecanary when she talks to the Mormons.
Qcmbr: .... blatant and uncomfortable sanitisation of the early history........
The LDS's unsavory history was covered in Jon Krakauer's book, "Under the Banner of Heaven," which you once dismissed as propaganda by "Krackpot Krakauer." Welcome to reality. The truth is always better than fiction.
This religion I can see really appeals to polygamists, I think that cartoon was very freaky myself . It seems like there are some things that come from the bible , I wouldn't have a problem saying that jesus and satan are brothers since jesus is believed to have been arch angel Michael who remained loyal to God where as satan rebelled . If you join you may wind up with several wives ......he he
Care to explain how this change came about? Your explanation would certainly be of benefit to bluecanary when she talks to the Mormons.
I'll try but the more I talk to people the more I struggle to define it right..I guess having a strong belief is a bit like being an alcoholic..even when you know it's not what you want anymore your brain is still wired to want it and you get stuck secretly craving it...
So I'll explain my change from my viewpoint of today , including my recent insights and knowing that tomorrow I may well describe my change from a different angle as I explore my past more and more.
Fact 1: I always had things that I could not logically square - that part's of my brain overroad and stuck in my mental junk closet under labels such as, "God's will is not mine", "I'll understand one day" and "I need to be more humble before the answer is revealed." The more faith I was required to exercise the more the belief was likely to be in this closet. For me this closet included the flood, creation, unanswered prayers, lack of healings, Eden, need for an atonement, masonic mormonism etc.
Fact 2: What I loved about my faith, what was my surrogate crutch, the defense against my doubts was the emotional, mental and cultural commitment to mormonism. Whatever anyone says, if you throw yourself into the cultural aspects then Mormonism is extremely rewarding, its friends , family, fun coupled with , in general, a fantastic bunch of well meaning people.I've not given this bit up nor do I want to.
Fact 3: As a committed member who had served a mission my emotional investment was huge. To lose all that committment by admitting I was wrong was the mental equivalent of trying to walk a straight line after spinning on the spot. I did not realise how hard wired my brain was, how unable to actually process conflicting data or even perceive it. Trying to explain higher maths to my 5 year old was as effective as trying to convince me that I was wrong. People also presenting information laced with mockery, disdain or vitriol made it utterly easy for my brain to filter it out before it could ever get to my deeper processing centres.
So how did I change? For me I needed several 'keys', things to unlock my doors and defences.
Firstly I had a friend with whom I'd served a mission -and had arguably the pinacle of my spiritual experiences with-leave the church. The emotional bond was strong enough to allow myself to ask the real question about why he could leave the church (rather than my stock excuse of he'd just sinned.)
Secondly I posted here and used this site as a way to examine my own beliefs without too directly assaulting them. I already 'know' that JWs aren't 'true' (as a Mormon I can reject all other gods very easily) so I can examine areas of similarity without arousing any mental alarm bells. Those tussles I had taught me many many lessons that allowed me to see JWs as cut from exactly the same mental cloth as Mormonism and the rest of religious thought. One of the most important debates was a series of evolution debates with Tetrapod Sapien.
Thirdly - and for me - most importantly I decided that my 'testimony' was not very strong because I hadn't paid a high price for it. The only way I could test it and prove it was to offer to God the hardest thing I could, my unbelief. I figured if I could honestly appraise all the facts and confront that terrifying possibility that it was all a lie and come out the other side with my testimony intact , that I would truly be able to say I believed. The problem was that while this allowed me to open up my mental closet when I finally gave up my defenses and looked I found that it was just a lie. I read the scholarly books and realised the mental church and God I worshipped were baseless and a fraud. I read lots and lots.
I'm still recovering / suffering. Losing my faith was devastating, I had many sleepless nights, I didn't know how I could tell my wife and extended family. Everything I had was invested in this crazy, silly, beautiful , ultimately false organisation. I went through a mental 'divorce', I'm still going through that divorce. It hurts but its getting better and I no longer feel guilt (except for those who I've influenced in the past.)
I read psychology books to understand what belief is mentally and why I could actually experience 'divine' feelings - I found out exactly how and why.
I read LDS church history books by pro / anti authors and I see the discrepancies.
I discuss my feelings as much as possible with sympathetic ears (my wife has fortunately been awesome) to keep myself grounded.
I laugh and joke about it and allow myself to enjoy what the church genuinely offers. It stops me getting bitter.