yes, indeed
just a few questions I don't want to ask directly hell
by Janey214 92 Replies latest jw friends
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DaCheech
reniaa is in hybernation mode again
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tenyearsafter
Spike,
Sincere Christian thought and association is fine and good, but it doesn't address Janey's question. She wants to know whether JW's are prophets or scholars. The fact that JW's aren't allowed to use the Bible on its own is a HUGE red flag! If you truly believe that you need an aid and that the aid is the authority for understanding the Bible, then you would be no different than Mormons who feel the Book of Mormon takes precedence over the Bible if they don't agree. I hardly think they qualify as prophets...and though they may have some scholars at WT headquarters, I wouldn't classify them as a scholarly organization.
Janey,
You need to critically reason on the facts...all of them. Don't be led astry by talk of "feelings" or how nice people are. There are lots of very nice JW's...as there are nice Christians, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and Atheists...being nice should not be the primary reason you embrace something as your roadmap for life. Keep searching until you feel you have enough facts to decide. There is no perfect religion, church or belief system that hangs its hat on a manmade philosophy or edict. The one thing I am sure of is that I run when I am told that a man can speak for God better than the Bible can!
Good luck in your research...I know you will find it illuminating.
TYA
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Janey214
Hello everyone and thank you for your further posts!
I'm going to be writing more later on but I don't want anyone to think that this topic is dead because it really isn't! But I've got to get to church!
Thanks again
J
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BluesBrother
BUT I AM TRYING TO FIND OUT WHETHER CT RUSSELL AND THE ORIGINAL MEMBERS OF THE WBTS WERE PROPHETS OR SCHOLARS? IF THEY WERE PROPHETS THEN WHAT HAPPENED? IF THEY WERE SCHOLARS DID THEY LOOK INTO OTHER FAITHS TO DISCOVER IF THE BIBLE TRUTHS WERE ALREADY RESTORED? MANY THANKS. JANE
The Watctower Society themselves have said - in "Proclaimers" book p 59
"What about other Bible doctrines that were discussed in the Watch Tower and other publications? Did Russell take full credit for uncovering these gems of truth? Explained Russell: “We found that for centuries various sects and parties had split up the Bible doctrines amongst them, blending them with more or less of human speculation and error . . . .........’ And so, nearly all denominations gave evidence that their founders had been feeling after truth: but quite evidently the great Adversary had fought against them and had wrongly divided the Word of God which he could not wholly destroy.”.................................................
Then how did Russell perceive the role that he and his associates played in publishing Scriptural truth? He explained: “Our work . . . has been to bring together these long scattered fragments of truth and present them to the Lord’s people—not as new, not as our own, but as the Lord’s. . . . We must disclaim any credit even for the finding and rearrangement of the jewels of truth.” He further stated: “The work in which the Lord has been pleased to use our humble talents has been less a work of origination than of reconstruction, adjustment, harmonization."
So Russell viewed himself as regathering "gems of truth" from wherever they could be found...I see it a a "Pick n mix" theology...
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Spike Tassel
I see it as a "reconstruction, adjustment, harmonization" theology (to use C.T.'s own phrase), which continues even now.
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Freedom Fighter
Spike - the big problem with the reconstruction and adjustment approach is that many people have lost their lives as a direct result of following the blood policy. It's different if it was something like we no longer clebrate birthdays - at least that's not life threatening.
When you change policy that affects a person's very life then it is morally indefensible.
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Janey214
Hello, again!
Okay I’m going to address the other points as I have done before.
Digderidoo :- I appreciate what you’ve said about prophecy and that JW’s claim prophecy. I guess what I was trying to get it is how they ‘prove’ or what ‘evidence’ they give as to state why they are prophets? I hope that clarifies what I’m saying. Thank you for the quotes that you’ve provided, it’s all very intriguing isn’t it?
You asked me where I was in the Bible Teach book – we’ve completed it many many weeks ago. J It is interesting that you’ve noted that there are still ‘Bible Students’ in the world. I would be intrigued to get in touch with their organisation. I had to laugh when you said that the WT legalism was more reminiscent of the Pharisees. How true of so many faiths and churches! Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that there isn’t much good done by the WT and its followers, I’m not here to argue or point out where they’re wrong, I’m merely trying to discover what is truth in relation to the gospel and the way that God wants me to live my life.
You also said that the WT acts as mediator for us, that’s something that I cannot comprehend. I don’t really see how this ties into the scriptures. Surely Christ is our mediator? Isn’t that the purpose of His sacrifice?
I am most grateful for the links you’ve provided and have spent the last couple of days reading through much of that material. There are some places in the books where I cannot quite comprehend them as being correct. In fact there was one piece that essentially said a JW learning martial arts or other defensive technique was unholy, and specifically that a woman who is being attacked should ‘scream’ rather than being able to physically protect herself. I cannot accept that. I can’t conceive of how anybody can. Are we not supposed to protect the body as our temple? Surely that’s the purpose in WT teachings of not taking in blood and smoking? That we do not defile our body? Surely any reasonable person would conclude that being able to protect oneself from attack is also protecting their body. I respect the idea that we shouldn’t learn martial arts to attack someone else, but not in relation to self-defence.
You then quoted SpikeTassel as follows:
Those connected to the Great Apostasy are cut off from both spiritual gifts (miracles) from Jehovah, and spiritual understanding from Jehovah as well. All these ones have access to its the "false light" from Satan & co.
In connection to that, why therefore did the apostles ‘promote’ new apostles to their ranks after the death of Christ? It would make no sense for them not to have continued that line with those gifts in some form or another right down to the current days.
You also quoted SpikeTassel as follows:
The mere writing of a religious book, its preservation for hundreds of years, and its esteem by millions do not prove it is of divine origin or canonical. It must ber credentials of Divine Authorship demonstrating that it was inspired by God. The apostle Peter states: "Prophecy was at no time brought by man's will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit." (2 Peter 1:21) An examination of the Bible canon shows that its contents measure up to this criterion in every respect.
If that is the case then WHO, HOW AND WHERE do the WT decide what is canonical and what is not? I am pleased that even SpikeTassel sees that the canon need not currently be closed, however this intimates to me that he is equally saying that the Bible therefore is not the infallible, inerring, and complete book that the WT teaches it is. I also disagree somewhat with what he says about the books I quote being books that are included in the canon, a little more digging around regarding apocryphal writings it becomes clear that there are other books that would fit the mark, aside from those in the canon he quotes as being possibly the books mentioned under other names.
You also quoted a great piece by SpikeTassel giving the differences between soul and spirit and whilst I respect what he’s saying and the reasoning he has, no one has yet to answer me in regarding to the various scriptures and information we have relating to the fact that Jesus ‘went and taught the Spirits in prison’. Is there any WT information regarding who these are? If the ‘person’ ends at death then what are these ‘spirit prisoners’, if WT is wrong and the ‘person’ is immortal then where does this leave WT teaching about death and hell?
Treadnh2o makes a remarkable comment
Keeping with the point of this thread, it is remarkable, though unsurprising, that an average JW is ill equiped for such a disussion with a "bible study". The reality is that if more publishers could answer these questions, serious damage could be done to their faith
I feel that unfortunately you are quite correct, certainly the very good and remarkable ladies that I have had visit with me, as well as the information they have prepared and the ‘guests’ they have brought with them, all sadly seem to fall short of being able to answer my questions which is why I came here to this forum in the first place. Albeit originally thought this forum was for JWs rather than all the anti-JW stuff that seems to be on here. J
Treadnh2o also says that I will be ‘red flagged’ as to where I’m getting information from, unfortunately the vast majority of the information I’m getting to engage the witnesses with is directly from scripture! =D
Tenyearsafter you said
Starting with Russell, the JW organization has taught that the Bible alone could not bring someone into a true understanding of God's purposes and requirements. Believers needed the interpretation of the Bible by the "Faithful and Discreet Slave". Russell said that if a person would only read the Bible, minus his commentaries and interpretations, they would be back in the same "spiritual darkness" as the rest of Christendom within a year's time. That philosophy has continued to this day, and the JW organization is adamant about discouraging "independent study".
I find this so sad and also so frustrating. As yet no one has been able to tell me why I should listen to the WT! That’s all I want to know, in a nutshell, how the WT says it should be listened to, why they said they are the ones we should listen to.
Black Sheep you attributed a comment about the article you’d posted ‘What is Truth’ to SpikeTassel. It was actually me that made the comment about it appearing to be in regard to sincere Christian thought. :-S
I’d like to add one more thing here as well, and I’ll state this first. At no point on this thread have I emailed anyone or vice versa. Everything that’s been said and the opinions I’ve formed have been in the open. I notice that there is some ‘baiting’ of Reniaa. I’d just like to say that she is in England and this weekend is the main summer holiday weekend. Now I’m not defending her or attacking anyone else. I’m just putting a fact out there that she could simply just be on holiday/vacation.
Digderidoo you later posted some interesting thoughts about there being no perfect religion and there being nice people in many churches and even atheists. I find your ideas quite interesting in essence because they are in polar opposition to mine! Why is it that you feel there is ‘no perfect religion’, doesn’t this equate to saying ‘there is no perfect God’? Sorry I don’t’ mean to pry or attack. It is simply my belief that God made this world to be perfect, and everything He gave us was perfect in the beginning, it is therefore my belief that there is something out there that is perfect. It’s interesting that you mentioned mormons aside from Christianity as I am also studying with them too!
Thank you for your good luck!
I like what you said about a pick n mix theology and I appreciate your quotes from CT Russell. I’m in agreement with the quotes that there is much discord amongst all Bible using and believing peoples, but what was it that made CT Russell think HIS work brought it all together correctly? And I think you’re correct in relation to WT teaching about increasing light!
Well I think that’s it for now I hope that I’ve not bored you all too much! J I don’t’ meet back with my visiting JWs until Monday 6 September (as it’s Bank Holiday tomorrow) but I’ll let you all know how it goes next time.
J
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Spike Tassel
to Freedom Fighter (Post 401 re "loss of life due to blood policy"): I saw an argument by a medical practitioner regarding the issue of euthanasia which bears on this. He stated that there is a "subtle yet huge" distinction between "letting life run its natural course, though easing the pain & suffering" and "purposely killing the person to end the pain & suffering".
I believe that it is an equally "subtle yet huge" distinction between "letting life run its natural course, with the help of non-blood medical management and therapies" and "purposefully going against what one understands as a Biblical command".
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Spike Tassel
to Janey214 (Post 9): There is NO Scriptural evidence that Christ's Apostles appointed more Apostles, I suggest. Thus when Christ's Apostles all died out, there were no more divine-sanctioned resurrections or divinely-authorised "speaking in tongues".
Canon is correctly determined by analysing the books or portions thereof and testing the spirit and truth of each, as per 2 Peter 1:21.
The Bible is not what we currently have access to, actually. All we have is copies of copies, and translations/ versions/ and paraphrases of such. The Bible itself was inspired of God. The copies, etc., are NOT NECESSARILY inspired of God.
I understand the "Spirits in prison" to be "demons". He was now able to do so because he was resurrected, not as a human, but as an angel, human in appearance.
The Scriptures indicate that only Jehovah and Jesus have the ability to confer immortality on anyone. This is NOT done to "demons", since they will be destroyed forever after their final chance to test humans at the end of the Millenium.
JWs are equipped for entry-level Bible study by the WT meetings and schools. For more advanced Bible study they would need to take courses on Bible languages, translation techniques, historical & cultural perspectives, which are generally only touched on in WT literature.
You cannot be soundly "red flagged" for direct, comparative study of scripture, I suggest.
The WT understands that their legitimacy is spirit-directed. One needs to attend their 5 meetings per week, and prepare for each ahead of time, to fully comprehend the holy spirit at work. (Hebrews 10:23-25)
As to baiting of any posters, it should be fairly assumed regarding every poster here that any of us (for a variety of reasons) may cease posting on this or any other thread. There is NO obligation to respond to baiting or other inappropriate conduct. It is for each poster to determine how to conduct themselves, barring any limiting action by a Moderator or a Site Owner.
"Perfect", according to Matthew 5:43-48, means being fair-minded, even-handed, and impartial. It is a command just as being "holy" is. Of course, perfection is a learned behaviour: as borne out in the saying that "practice MAKES perfect".
"Religion", as defined in the NWT Reference Bible footnote at 2 Kings 17:26, means "judgment; judicial decision". It is an interesting fact that the word "religion" is only found in the NWT main text in 2 Kings 17, and in the NWT Reference Bible footnotes at Esther 8:17; Acts 26:5; Colossians 2:18; and James 1:27. At Esther 8:17, the main text's "were declaring themselves Jews" is footnoted as "Or, "were Judaizing." Hebrew, mith·Ya·hadhim´; Septuagint, "were getting circumcised and Judaizing:; Vulgate c , "joined themselves to the sect of their religion [Latin, re·li·gi·o´ni] and ceremonies [Latin, cae·re·mo´ni·is]." In the 3 NT footnotes mentioned in this paragraph, "religion" is noted as a variant of the main texts' "form of worship".