Talking points for reasoning with JWs

by bluecanary 45 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi BC,

    Excellent stuff. Great writing style and clearly laid out arguments.

    Here's some points you might like (and one you might not!)

    Jesus would have to abandon them now because their belief system is totally reversed.

    Jesus is immutable (cannot change) Hebrews 13:8 as is the Father Malachi 3:6

    As a side issue, no surprise they are the same as they are one John 10:30

    In the I understand the Bible to teach statements you could add biblical verses which refutes these eight WT teachings.

    On the subject of minors being baptised I disagree. Firstly, I must state that IMHO JW baptism has nothing to do with the biblical baptism i.e. the bible says to believe and be baptised. As JWs do not hold biblical beliefs neither are they being baptised, even though they might be going thorough the motions.

    Now, with regards to which true Christians should be baptised I would say

    1. Those who believe (obviously not infants!).

    2. Those who can profess their faith (once again not infants!).

    3. Those who choose to be baptised themselves (obviously, not infants).

    For those who fulfill these prerequisites I see no reason why they shouldn't be baptised? Acts records whole households believing and being baptised Acts 18:8 Acts 16:15

    I would put the last two points (mediator/salvation) first, they are paramount IMHO.

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • startingover
    startingover

    Shameless bookmark

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    Ok so hear is my understanding from what I was taught as a JW. I do add I put my own opinion in some statements.

    Is it acceptable to question what the Watchtower Society teaches?

    -Yes they say to question, learn, and develop in understanding as well as adding straight to your faith.

    When Jesus inspected the Watchtower Society in 1919, what did he find?

    -He wasn't around in 1919. Holy Spirit was.

    Do Witness teachings come from the Bible or from the Watchtower Society?

    -They go hand in hand but after observing comments on here sounds like reading the Bible through and through is truly what I need to do before I say much.

    Why does a religion claiming to be the only group to have truth revealed to them by Jehovah require ongoing changes in doctrine? Does truth change?

    -Progressing... they use that term to explain why their is a need in looking at certain situations.

    Is the Watchtower Society inspired by God's holy spirit?

    -Through the "Faithful and discreet Slave" Class.

    Does the Watchtower Society encourage people to read the Bible?

    -Yes all the time. I never done it cause it takes alot of patients reading historical stories, but they do that all the time every meeting and especially when they try to incourage you to get baptized.

    Does the Bible really support the teaching that God disapproves of blood transfusions?

    -It does but I personally think it is how you interpret the scriptures.

    Is the Watchtower Society's practice of disfellowshipping consistent with the Bible?

    -It's hard to say. I think there is different circumstances in which they need to consider... age, eduation, history, background, etc. just talking with that person is hard to reach a conclusion. You have to consider also the truma- emotional outbust can effect how they should rationalize on their circumstances.

    -So with that the bible does say

    'Expel the wicked man from among you.' (1 Corinthians 5:1, 5, 12, 13) but I think they need to also think about Matt 18:12-14; 2 Cor. 2:6-8 more.

    Should a minor child be allowed to make a baptismal vow?

    -They don't have any old child make a baptismal vow. But I do think they need to consider more the experience younger ones have. It's a chance that the child makes when committing to something and preach what they have never experianced. It just ignorance.

    Is belonging to an Organization a requirement for salvation?

    -Organization means 'group of persons organized for some end or work' (dictionary.com) and keep in mind in order to have a body of people... recieve donations, have input on government standings, and reach out to a wide nation of people... it makes sence to have a Organization.

    Who is your mediator?

    -Mediator is 'a person who mediates, esp. between parties at variance.' (dictionary.com) I my research Jesus should be as far as spiritually speaking goes. (Heb 9:14, 15) but then for the "anointed brothers" consider (1 Ti 6:15, 16) and also consider God using Moses too. (Galatians 3:19, 20)

  • reniaa
    reniaa

    Hmmm

    not much on actual doctrine I see! Just structure and prophecy intepretation gripes. Side stepping the main issues and focussing on the gnat stuff or inevitable human imperfection you would find in any human organisation many things apostles themselves had to be counciled on.

    Reniaa

  • bluecanary
    bluecanary

    Butterfly, did you read the rest of the material that went with each question? You'll find that for some questions, the Society's publications do not match what they tell you in person, for others the publications contradict themselves, for still others the general members aren't really aware of what the organization's teachings are. For instance:

    "On inspecting the remnant of his anointed disciples in the year 1919 C.E., the reigning King Jesus Christ did find the appointed "slave" faithful and discreet in the feeding of his "domestics." Accordingly, he appointed this "slave" class over all his belongings." God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached pp.350,355

    This is a primary teaching. This is the teaching upon which they base the idea that they are the only true religion. But how often have you heard this from the platform or mentioned in the publications?

    I suggest you read the posts in this thread that reason on each question. You are welcome to check all the references yourself from the society's literature. You may be surprised at some of the things they say in their own publications.

  • bluecanary
    bluecanary

    Reniaa, I've asked you this question on several threads and you have yet to answer it. You make the assumption that the trinity, hellfire and soul doctrines are the most important in choosing a religion. Jesus said that love of God and love of neighbor are the two most important commands. The questions dealt with in this topic are relevant to those two commands. Why do you assume that the relative divinity of Jesus Christ or what state we end up in when we die is more important than how we show respect for life with the blood doctrine or love for neighbors with disfellowship policies?

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    Ok wow guess it helps to read the rest of the material. It was very interesting and true... I would have like to see you and one of the 'strong brothers in the organization "battle it out" sota speak.

  • cantleave
    cantleave

    Reniaa, Do you recall when the "What the does bible really teach" book came out, we were told that it did not focus on doctrinal issues. The scoiety realises that doctrinal issues are a distraction from from teaching it's core ploicies, you know the things that sucker people in. So if they are debating doctrinal issues, why should bluecanary?

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Why this is not "gnat stuff":

    Is it acceptable to question what the Watchtower Society teaches?

    Having lived first hand through the persecution the WTS perpetuates against those who question it, this is a big deal. There is no room for explicit questioning, let alone doubting, each and every utterance of the WTS. When you question, participation in the religion (and therefore eternal life) are withheld. I have seen, in my family even, a letter to the WTS asking questions being used as evidence of "self disassociation". The emotional toll on those (dysfunctional) good-hearted people, trying in vain to live with both their conscience and be in the good graces of the WTS, truly is heartbreaking.

    The WTS shows itself to be hypocritical - something Jehovah detests - when it both encourages questioning of dogma, and punishes questioning of it's own dogma.

    Should you follow a hypocrite?

    When Jesus inspected the Watchtower Society in 1919, what did he find?

    The WTS rests it's entire claim to being Jejovah's visible organization on on being recognized by Jesus in an act of invisible presence in 1919. Yet it seems incredible that, given what the WTS was promulgating then, that they would have been judged as being a Faithful and Discreet Servant. Without credibility in 1919, the WTS has no claim to being Jehovah's organization.

    And...no, Virginia, just claiming to have been chosen by Jehovah is not enough to prove you have been chosen by Jehovah. The claimed evidence of that choice was the purity of the WTS dogma...and it doesn't hold up.

    Should you follow an organization that claims a special relationship with God that it cannot defend?

    Do Witness teachings come from the Bible or from the Watchtower Society?

    For a follower if the Bible, it must be very important to actually follow what the Bible says. Since the WTS repeatedly tells its followers that you cannot rely on the Bible (despite the Bible saying explicitly that you can), it is impossible to not see a disconnect between the WTS and following the Bible.

    Do you want to be told what the Bible says, or read it for yourself?

    Why does a religion claiming to be the only group to have truth revealed to them by Jehovah require ongoing changes in doctrine? Does truth change?

    The WTS has for decades flip-flopped between being infallible and being only human. It claims infallibility when demanding its followers believe, and imperfection when it is wrong. If it's infallible, well, we're done then, see ya later! But, since we know it is instead imperfect, we must follow that truth to a not-so-startling conclusion:

    If they're wrong on some things, they may be wrong on many others.

    And, since there are other religions that share some basic dogma as the WTS, perhaps these other religions are less wrong than the WTS and should be explored more.

    Or, maybe you don't really need an organization per se after all.

    Doyou want to follow someone that keeps changing the rules? When people die by those rules that are later changed? When there is only arrogance where contrition and apologies should be forthcoming?

    Is the Watchtower Society inspired by God's holy spirit?

    See above.

    Does the Watchtower Society encourage people to read the Bible?

    Only as part of the sales pitch. We have examples of their own words telling followers they cannot live by the utterance of Jehovah alone, they need to have someone chew it for them first. If you follow the Bible, I don't see how you need the WTS to give it to you in small quotes in a Watchtower or some other publication. Indeed, there are the examples where followers are sternly told to NOT study the Bible on their own.

    Isn't that doing the same thing that the WTS accused the Catholic church of doing - keeping the Bible away from its followers by keeping it hidden in Latin?

    Is Bible reading important to you? Do you want to follow an organization that discourages individual studying, or small group studying?

    Do you want to be told you are incapable of understanding the Bible? Why would the Holy Spirit avoid you when you read?

    Does the Bible really support the teaching that God disapproves of blood transfusions?

    Is the Watchtower Society's practice of disfellowshipping consistent with the Bible?

    If the Bible says to cut off all contact with your family over a disagreement in dogma, then what can anyone due to gainsay it? But, instead, the Bible shows that all manner of unbelievers are to be treated as regular people. It's not Biblical to shun.

    That then asks the questions: Where does this shunning come from (could it be from imperfect men)? Why must family ties be cut in the case of DA or DF (could it be to keep controlling followers' minds)?

    Why would you cause the pain and anguish of shunning when it is NOT Biblical? Why follow the WTS when it DEMANDS you shun?

    Should a minor child be allowed to make a baptismal vow?

    If a minor does not understand enough of life to consent to contracts, to consent to sex, to consent to anything, really, then they cannot be in a position to consent to baptism: surely the most important, significant event in a human's life.

    Unless your Catholic, of course, in which case the formality is more important than an individual's commitment.

    I don't know at what age an individual becomes competent for such consent, and it can be different for different persons. But if they're not old enough to consent to a contract, they're not ready for baptism.

    Would you want to follow an organization that takes advantage of - and may even be coercing in certain ways - children?

    Is belonging to an Organization a requirement for salvation?

    The WTS says yes. The Bible says all you need is faith.

    Who do you follow?

    Who is your mediator?

    This is perhaps the fundamental point of doctrine that is most important to a Christian's life: how is your relationship with God and Jesus defined?

    The WTS says only some (144,000) have a right to pray to Jehovah through Jesus, have a right to his mediation, have a right to being redeemed by Jesus sacrifice. The rest only gain these benefits through their association with the FDS. In other words, they really are saying "the rest of us" must pray to the FDS, are redeemed on the coattails of the FDS, we must believe in the FDS.

    Who do you think you should pray to, and gain salvation by? The remaining members of a "generation" or Christ?

    If you really agree with what the WTS says, more power to you - celebrate in the Truth!

    If you can't agree with some of what the WTS says, get out of her.

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Missed this one:

    Does the Bible really support the teaching that God disapproves of blood transfusions?

    Let's even suppose for a moment that it does.

    Let's suppose that somehow the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law further was voided in this case.

    The fact is that the Bible also allowed the breaking of this law to save lives.

    Do you want to follow an organization that, to save face, ignores evidence and contorts rules? When people are dying?

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