Do I have to have been baptised to be apostate? New to forum. (page 3)

RubaDub

That would make a very interesting Question From Readers in the Watchtower ...

" Do I need to first get baptized to be considered an apostate? "

Rub a Dub

mouthy

Hi Artemis,

And big BIG welcome .. Happy to have you join us

Black Sheep

I was just interrupted by a phone call from a JW family member who was making noises about me getting back into the cult. Within two minutes I was asking them for a king list.

They claimed that they had done it in the past. I claimed they hadn't, because if they had they would know what I was talking about. I suggested they make up a list and give me a copy.

"I'm no good at maths!"

I called bulls1t. "This is the simplest maths there is, addition, 1+1=2, it's the first maths any kid learns at school! Get yourself the lengths of the reigns of these kings, add them up and give me a call. My conscience wouldn't let me go knocking on people's doors telling them that Jerusalem fell in 607 when I know that the householders could trot out evidence that it didn't, using literature from my own religion, and I would have to agree with them."

They decided that it was best if we didn't talk about religion.

Cheers

Chris

carla

I was always under the impression that one must have been a baptized jw in order to get the official apostate label, all others are only opposers. (But the jw's/ex jw's here can as always answer best, I've never been one) I asked if they would baptize me just so I could df/da and get the official label but they wouldn't go for it. I wanted to be sure they would stay as far away from me as possible.

Black Sheep

In the above conversation I pointed out that if I got baptised they would DF me the next day because I didn't believe that Jerusalem fell in 607. They said something about it being my choice to believe the Truth or not. I said it has nothing to do with choice, it is simple addition.

oompa

ya

cameo-d

Hey Arte.

One of my friends who is a JW fader, told me he was visited at his place of work and called off the job because this elder wanted to talk to him. The elder told him not to have anything to do with me because I was an apostate.

When my friend told me this....I was just bowled over! I have never even been a JW!

These elders have a lot of gaddamn nerve! I have been in a KH 3 times and none of those times were in that elder's KH.

This one was using his position for personal vendetta and to flaunt his power over his subjects and try to control people.

Am I pissed? You bet I am. This elder was a liar and had no right to do such a thing and slander me.

He was trying to get back at me because I would not cowtow to one of his demands (business and $$$).

Some of these people are truly evil. It's no different from the behavior in the secret societies where they try to cut off your income and employment to get you to tow the line. It's a blackmail power-struggle kind of revenge for not kissing their ass.

So, yes, I suppose you can be an apostate without ever having been a JW. It seems that is one of the biggest tools they use for leverage. (Why do you think the lever is one of the Masonic symbols???)

I was branded. If you are a non-JW associating with any JWs they will still try to stick their nose in your business, too.

artemis.design

Thanks every one for the help. I am going to do some swatting up on their literature so I am prepared. I have already done some research and am beginning to understand why 607bc and 1914 are so important, and yet so completly wrong.

I am still interested to know why they think humans have only been around for 6000 years. I have found some great links on here from old posts.

Thanks as well for the advise and warning. If I hadn't have had your opinions I would have really put my foot in it. I would hate to loose my family completly. I have spoken to my brother who is a witness (but a rather chilled out one), and he says if I have any questions he would be happy to get someone to discuss them with me, just as a normal "worldly" person. He assures me any discussion would remain private. He thinks I should not try and challenge the family directly as I am already considered bad association and it would be unwise to give my parents amunition to drive a wedge between me and my brothers and sister. This is defeating the point a bit as the issue was really with the family but I understand where he is coming from.

Not sure I know how I feel about having a "discussion". They may consider this an opportunity for conversion, and will probably even put in time for it. I will let you know the out come if and when this happens. Arte

Quandry

Welcome, artemis.

I was a witness for over thirty years.I would have "dug in my heels" during a confrontation, so don't suggest it.

If you are looking for opinions, here is mine.

You seem to have a nice family. They could shun you as a bad associate, even though you are not baptised, but don't. No, technically not apostate, but the end result would be the same. You would still be "dangerous" in your thinking, and could "corrupt" them.

I am sure it is frustrating when they continuously talk about their "theocratic routine" in front of you, but remember, this is all that is ingrained into them as important.

What are some of your accomplishments? Did you go on to get an education? If not, please think about it. Although dubs say that a higher education is dangerous, they must admire and respect those that do have an expertise in different fields, as they are always quoting them in the WT magazines. (You could point that out to the family if need be).

I do like your idea of discussing how mankind could not have been here on earth just a little over 6,000 years. Even the WT admits that the "cradle of civilization" was in the area of Mesopotamia. If, after the flood, 4,000 years ago, men scattered over the surface of the planet, then how, indeed, did Stonehenge come to be over 5,000 years old? Also, the cave drawings in France have been dated to about 30,000 years ago.

Have you taken some courses in Ancient History? If so, you do have credibility, and can quote your sources. Perhaps if you just somehow work a few points into a conversation now and then...and back off. You will have spread some seeds.

You must be patient. They are not going to have some "ah-hah" moment due to something you've said, but you can interject a thought or two as the occasion allows.

Black Sheep

I am still interested to know why they think humans have only been around for 6000 years

This is a common belief. The Bible has a genealogy of Jesus going back to Adam that can be used to calculate Adam's 'birthday'. Because the Bible is 'written by God', it is to be believed ahead of anything that scientists discover under Satan's influence. The WT isn't the only cult that teaches that.

More advice. Don't start anything.

Never initiate a religious conversation with a cult member. Wait for them to say something. Ignor it if it is unimportant, or miles away from your desired subject. If you attack every little thing they say, you will lose you 'privileges'. If they start a conversation that can be turned to your subject, you are in. Go for it. Remember, it should be a question. You should be able to defend yourself with literature on their shelf, not your printout from JWN . Be nice about it.

I have an agreement with my parents, that if they don't talk about their religion, I won't attack their religious leaders. They manage to keep their end of the deal MOST of the time, but God help them when they throw me the ball.

Cheers

Chris

Do I have to have been baptised to be apostate? New to forum.

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