Son of God vs.God

by Mazzie Brossmann 30 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  snowbird

  Dark said,

  There are numerous other examples of descriptions and titles applied to God that the NT writers quoted but applied to Jesus, I can post them later but something tells me you're aware of them but choose to ignore their significance.

  When ALL the evidence is considered (not just the WT's cherry picked and twisted "evidence"), you see the rational behind mainstream Christianity's veneration and worship of Jesus

  Prepare for God's Arrival

  Isaiah 40: 5 Thunder in the desert!
  "Prepare for God's arrival! Make the road straight and smooth,
  a highway fit for our God. Fill in the valleys,
  level off the hills, Smooth out the ruts,
  clear out the rocks. Then God's bright glory will shine
  and everyone will see it.
  Yes. Just as God has said."

  Thunder in the Desert!

  Matthew 3: 1 -2 While Jesus was living in the Galilean hills, John, called "the Baptizer," was preaching in the desert country of Judea. His message was simple and austere, like his desert surroundings: "Change your life. God's kingdom is here."

  3 John and his message were authorized by Isaiah's prophecy:
  
  Thunder in the desert!
  Prepare for God's arrival! Make the road smooth and straight!

  Zechariah 12:10 They'll then be able to recognize me as the One they so grievously wounded—that piercing spear-thrust! And they'll weep—oh, how they'll weep! Deep mourning as of a parent grieving the loss of the firstborn child.

  John 19: 36 -37 These things that happened confirmed the Scripture, "Not a bone in his body was broken," and the other Scripture that reads, "They will stare at the one they pierced."

  Isaiah 6: 1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Master sitting on a throne—high, exalted!—and the train of his robes filled the Temple.

  John 12:41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

  I certainly see the rationale, and I venerate and worship Him.

  Sylvia
• 

  isaacaustin

  Exactly Sylvia. How many glories did Isaiah see? Did God share his glory with Jesus? Doesn't God state in the OT numerous times that he will share his glory with no one? Thus unless we recognize the Son and Father as one being (yes two persons, but operating perfectly as one flesh) we make Jehovah's words contradict.
• 

  BurnTheShips

  We have 34,000 Christian denominations and growing. The majority think Jesus is somehow Almighty God. In past history any desenting opinion to a triune God was heavily censored by torture, execution, burning of documents, keeping the bible for only a select few to read and even war.

  We have 7,000,000 Witnesses and growing. The majority think that the Divine Logos is somehow a created angel. In past JW history any desenting opinion to a henotheistic pantheon was heavily censored by shunning, public censoring, splitting up of families, and keeping the bible for only a select few to read while distributing an authorized corruption of it to the rest of the organization.

  BTS
• 

  QuestForThruth

  Isaiah 52:10 to 53:12

  {10} Yahuwah has made bare His sacred arm in the eyes of all the heathen and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our 'Eloah.
  {11} Depart! Depart! Go out from there! Touch no unclean thing! Go out from the midst of her! Be clean, you who bear the vessels of Yahuwah,
  {12} for you shall not go out with haste or go by flight, for Yahuwah will go before you and the 'Eloah of Yisra'el will be your rear guard.
  {13} Behold! My Servant shall deal prudently. He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.
  {14} Just as many were astonished at you, so His visage was marred more than any man and His form more than the sons of men.
  {15} So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him for what had not been told them they shall see and what they had not heard they shall consider.

  (Yasha'Yahuw 53 RNV) Who has believed our report and to whom has the arm of Yahuwah been revealed?
  {2} For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness and when we see Him there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
  {3} He is despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him. He was despised and we did not esteem Him.
  {4} Surely He has borne our grief and carried our sorrows, yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by 'Elohiym, and afflicted.
  {5} But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
  {6} All we like sheep have gone astray. We have turned, every one, to his own way, and Yahuwah has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
  {7} He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth.
  {8} He was taken from prison and from judgment and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living. For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
  {9} And they made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death because He had done no violence nor was any deceit in His mouth.
  {10} Yet it pleased Yahuwah to bruise Him. He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of Yahuwah shall prosper in His hand.
  {11} He shall see the labor of His soul and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many for He shall bear their iniquities.
  {12} Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death and He was numbered with the transgressors and He bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors.

  Isaiah 59:15-21

  {15} So truth fails and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. Then Yahuwah saw it and it displeased Him that there was no justice.
  {16} He saw that there was no man and wondered that there was no intercessor. Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him and His own righteousness, it sustained Him.
  {17} For He put on righteousness as a breastplate and a helmet of salvation on His head. He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
  {18} According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay. Fury to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies. The coastlands He will fully repay.
  {19} So shall they fear the name of Yahuwah from the west and His splendor from the rising of the sun. When the enemy comes in like a flood the Spirit of Yahuwah will lift up a standard against him.
  {20} "The Redeemer will come to Tsiyown and to those who turn from transgression in Ya'aqob," says Yahuwah.
  {21} "As for Me," says Yahuwah, "this is My covenant with them. My Spirit who is upon you and My words that I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth nor from the mouth of your descendants nor from the mouth of your descendants' descendants," says Yahuwah, "from this time and forevermore."

  Yahuwshua(Jesus) is the right arm!
• 

  QuestForThruth

  I`m not a Jew but I can say that I agree with that

  http://www.downundertruenameministries.com/YAHSHUA_OUR_MESSIAH_YAHWEH.pdf
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  reniaa

  hi dark

  I have done my own scriptural research and found the oppostite to be true of john and paul's opinion of god.

  John 17:3 jesus himself speaking as quoted by John.

  John 17:3 (New International Version)

  3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

  the only ONLY TRUE God and Jesus christ kept completely separate here by John.

  1 Corinthians 11:3
  Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

  a trinitarian would say this is the headship principle but again they are reading the word Father into the word God to suit their theology and also they are ignoring that Jesus is the HEAD of man if headship meant you were part of God both man women and Jesus would be God too.

  Pauls words here and absolutely no hint that Jesus is God.

  if you want a good site this one shows a lot of trinity issues. The man on it isn't a witness and was a trinity apologist for 40 years till finally realised trinity wasn't biblically supported.

  http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/theology/deity/trinity.html

  Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Philippians 4:20).

  The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, for "In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, "For we are indeed his offspring.' Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead." (Acts 17:24-31).

  This scripture here is so powerful on God and showing that Jesus isn't God. and that Jesus died something God cannot do. The bible very specific that Jesus died and God raised him. trnity theology demands that the bible is lying here.

  What really puts me off trinity is the amount of oxymorons it needs to support the theology.

  Reniaa
• 

  darkl1ght3r

  Hi again reniaa... :)

  Yeah, I did that same reasearch, and it seemed sufficiant until I did some more.

  Did I say anywhere in my post that one would not be able to find verses that differentiate the two? Of course not. That is part of what a "trinitarian" might describe as the "mystery" (or, "sacred secret" in JW lingo) of God. See 1 Tim 3:16 in any translation other than the NWT and you might get a little perspective on what I mean by that. Better yet... check the KIT. What word does the NWT add to that verse which totally changes it's meaning?

  What I did say, was that when the evidence is examined en toto, you see the 'scriptural logic' of the mainstream view that Jesus = God. You can cherry pick the verses that support your view. Have fun, you're already doing a great job of that. But if you want to be an intellectually honest Christian then you must attempt to reconcile those verses you pointed out, with the MANY verses that also equate Jesus with God. This is part of the reason I say the Bible writers were divided on the issue. The verses you point out are part of the reason that the trinity doctrine holds that Jesus and Jehovah are two different entities, while other verses demand that they be one and the same! You're not refuting anything by quoting those verses! The doctrine takes ALL of that into consideration!

  It's counterintuitive, I know. But my respose to that (if I believed in the supernatural) would be, who are we to assume we can comprehend the nature of spirit creatures? Which brings me to my final point...

  What really puts me off about JW theology, is how they claim to be proclaiming the name of God and to be the only people who truly understand what it means. "He causes to become." I AM THAT I AM. Or the JW rendering, I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE. The JWs understand that to mean that Jehovah will become whatsoever he pleases to accomplish his will. However they then proceed to place limits on what God can become. They arbitrarily state that he cannot be both the father and son in the flesh. The JWs decide that he cannot be three manifestations that are all of the same divine essence. They also decide that he cannot be both fully God and fully human.

  God says, "I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be."

  The JWs respond, "No, God. You will not. You will be bound by our definition of your nature."

  Peace.
• 

  jaguarbass

  In history there were like 13 Jesus before Jesus of Nazarath. Chrishna. Vishnu, Hercules and 9 others.

  Google it.
• 

  Raphael

  Reniaa,

  Provided you are not a Jehovahs Witness, I agree with much of your reasoning .

  I went from being a Jehovahs Witness , to an Evangelical trintarian Christian and now simply a Christian who refuses to be labled.

  While I nolonger share the Witness views on Christ , I also do not share many of the Evangelical view either.

  I think we need to watch we are not so sidetracked by debating the trinity , we actually forget about glorifying , praising and honouring Christ .

  For me Jesus is the living son of God , and now partakes of the divine nature . He sits at the fathers right hand in glory - this glory conferred on him by God ( not shared) As God does not share his Glory with anyone . Also the fullness of God dwelling in Christ , does not make him God anymore than God in dwelling in every believer makes us God . Jesus is the perfect image/reflection of his Father God , just as Adam also called Gods son was before the fall. We have the same opportunity to become Gods sons and daughters , and to also be glorified alongside the his only begotten SON.
• 

  darkl1ght3r

  Again, I'll emphasize, the Bible is just too ambiguous on the matter. People can come to the conclusion that Jesus and God are not one and the same because that makes the most intuitive sense. You might even say that's what your 'common sense' might tell you. But we all know so-called 'common sense' isn't always right. While you CAN make a scriptural case to support your view, the validity of that case relies upon being able to rationalize away many other vs. that indicate they ARE one and the same or at least different manifestations of the same thing. This is why I say that belief in Jesus as God is an honest conclusion arising from a consideration of all the scriptures.

  I really don't care what people believe. I don't believe there is a God, so you might say my opinion is as neutral as it gets as I have no vested interest in the outcome of the debate. That said, I do believe that "Christendoms" view takes into account the most 'evidence' (bad term for it) without twisting or distorting scripture.

  The mainstream Christian view allows the scriptures to be taken at face value, while the JW view forces one to twist and rationalize untill you end up with a distorted (some would even say 'dishonest') translation such as the NWT.

  The simple fact that SO MANY conflicting views can be drawn from the so-called "Word of God" convinces me that indeed, it is no such thing. The view that "It's a mystery so that 'right-hearted' ones can figure it out blahblahblah" is a logical fallacy of the 'No-True-Scotsman' type. This reasoning as well convinces me that the Bible (and any religion that makes such claims) cannot be from God. An almighty being with unlimited intellect certainly would not choose to play such silly and childish hide-and-seek games with his creation. Like the philosopher Robert Ingersoll said "If there is to be any communication from God to man, it must be addressed to his reason."

  A rational god would simply NOT communicate with us by forcing us to disregard the very tools he supposedly gave us to avoid being duped, i.e. logic and reason. If we did not have to disregard those tools then there would be no need for faith. Therefore faith is not a virtue.