by Mazzie Brossmann 30 Replies latest watchtower bible
The Bible Students are still Arian and autonomous
There is a internet 'church' called Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church who are also arian, www.arian-catholic.org/
A few other former JWs have started 'fellowships' that are Arian as well .
As for me personally......in regards to Jesus.... I still am happy to be an Arian but I appreciate Jesus more then the current lipservice of the WTS.
There might be "34,000 Christian denominations" out there but how many of them put THEMSELVES in the position of mediator between man and God like the Watchtower Society does? How many of them say that Jesus is NOT mediator to believers except for only a finite number of baptized members of only THEIR cult?
hi dark
how can you say chrstiendom is better biblically?
Trinity - a logical construct not one songle scriptural reference to 3 in 1, divinity of Jesus is not trinity btw.
Jehovah/YHWH is One God and Jesus is his actual son begotten, is a straight biblical reference no twisting needed at all. as apposed to the trinity that has to be read into it as a doctrine.
I just completely disagree with you. To be honest I cannot understand how anyone that reads the bible, any version could believe Jesus is The Almighty God. THe bible clearly says he is God's son.
If I wanted to get deeper I could find whole chapters making references to the father as the true God and Jesus serving him.
Reniaa
Trinity - a logical construct not one songle scriptural reference to 3 in 1, divinity of Jesus is not trinity btw.
Matthew 28:19 (Name singular, not plural), Romans 8:9-10 (Clearly refers to the Trinity, Spirit of God=Spirit of Christ=Holy Spirit), John 14:15-20 (same deal).
divinity of Jesus is not trinity btw
No but the two go pretty much hand in hand. the Father is God. If the Son is God then that is two thirds of the Trinity. The bible says the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Father and the Son, so most would conclude He is God also.
The WT attack both thirds of the Trinity, Jesus, claiming He is "a god", not God and the Holy Spirit, saying He is an impersonal "active force", not a personal as the bible indicates.
Anyhow, I am wasting my time with you Reniaa it seems. I have presented these points and verses many times but you gloss over them and ignore confronting these points head on. Enough side stepping already. I feelt he dust coming off my sandals again Matthew 10:14-15
Like Paul did, I need to move on to fertile ground, not rocky ground or paths Mark 4
All the best,
Stephen
I don't just believe Jesus was, and is God, I know it. I came to this conclusion after a very long year studying the issues and published my findings here. http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html
60,000 words, plenty of citations, the JWs have utterly deceived the world in this regard.
JD II
hi dark
how can you say chrstiendom is better biblically?
Not saying either is "better", merely that one view is more internally consistent, despite it being counterintuitive.
Trinity - a logical construct not one songle scriptural reference to 3 in 1, divinity of Jesus is not trinity btw.
Correct. The Trinity is NOT an explicit biblical teaching. Presonally, I beleive the reasoning used to get to that belief (three in one) is tenuous at best, although I can understand the rationale behind it. You are also correct in that the divintiy of Jesus does not automatically lead to the Trinity. I never said it did. But I do find the JW dogmatic assertion that God CANNOT be a Trinity, to be silly as well. By your logic you might even say mankind has a 'racial memory' of triune gods. Or do you pick and choose the 'racial memory evidence' you use in your favor?
Jehovah/YHWH is One God and Jesus is his actual son begotten, is a straight biblical reference no twisting needed at all. as apposed to the trinity that has to be read into it as a doctrine.
One God, and Jesus as his Son (completely seperate from him), is but one possible conclusion that can be reached from examining the scriptures. I simply don't feel it takes into account all scriptures. The vast majority of Christians share my opinion. (Oh, right. I forgot... they're not TRUE Christians.)
Let me explain it to you this way... Imagine that an alien scholar from Mars is visiting earth and was completely unfamiliar with Christianity and the Bible. The alien scholar was then given all the biblical manuscripts to study and asked to describe the God of Christianity. The alien becomes an expert in all the ancient biblical languages and then proceeds his investigation. After EXAMINING ALL SCRIPTURES THAT HAVE A SAY ON THE MATTER, this scholar would probably come to a conclusion similar to the one held by mainstream Christianity, at least in regards to the relationship between Jesus and God.
Why? Because this alien scholar doesn't care which is true and therefore has no need to cherry pick ONLY verses that support a particular view. He would likely say that the nature of this God is confusing and illogical, and that the Bible writers themselves did not understand this Gods nature and therefore were not able to describe it adequately in words.
I just completely disagree with you. To be honest I cannot understand how anyone that reads the bible, any version could believe Jesus is The Almighty God. THe bible clearly says he is God's son.
And the mainstream view takes that into account. The Bible itself also says Jesus is God, and is to be worshipped, and is equated numerous times to God himself. All while also describing him as "God's Son". Confusing isn't it? But while your view might be more 'comfortable', it also ignores much scriptural evidence. Simply because you don't LIKE a particular conclusion, doesn't make it not true. That's the entire problem with JW theology... (and religion in general, but the JWs are particularly bad due to their dogmatism).
If I wanted to get deeper I could find whole chapters making references to the father as the true God and Jesus serving him.
No need. We've all read the Trinity Brochure. Eventually I'll post some scriptures that I'd like you to explain. And you'll see what I'm talking about in that there are many many refrences that the JW view must ignore or otherwise gloss over, but ultimately have no response to.
Hi dark
I look forward to further discussions with you. I agree edges are blurred but I think they have happenned in transit from original to translation at men's hands and time hasn't helped when words have beccome distorted in meaning to be narrower or broader in meaning' like worship/obeisance a typical one that has changed. I've enjoyed your posts
thx again
Reniaa
Son of God vs. God -- sounds like the most awesome WWW match ever!
Does anyone know how many religons believe Jesus was the son of God rather than God in human form?
Don't know.
Those of you who are still Christians, do any of you now believe Jesus is God?
Not a Christian.
Bored now.
reniaa:
Jehovah/YHWH is One God and Jesus is his actual son begotten, is a straight biblical reference no twisting needed at all. as apposed to the trinity that has to be read into it as a doctrine.
I just completely disagree with you. To be honest I cannot understand how anyone that reads the bible, any version could believe Jesus is The Almighty God. THe bible clearly says he is God's son.
My reply:
Trinitarians agree that Jh?YHWH is one God. This has been explained to you before so I am not going to do so again, you can go find a thread on it.
Yes the Bible says he is God's son. The term son had a deeper meaning in the Jewish culture than we think of today- one of identity.
Reniaa said:
"how can you say chrstiendom is better biblically?
Trinity - a logical construct not one songle scriptural reference to 3 in 1, divinity of Jesus is not trinity btw.
Jehovah/YHWH is One God and Jesus is his actual son begotten, is a straight biblical reference no twisting needed at all. as apposed to the trinity that has to be read into it as a doctrine.
I just completely disagree with you. To be honest I cannot understand how anyone that reads the bible, any version could believe Jesus is The Almighty God. THe bible clearly says he is God's son."
Reply:
I take it then you never took the time to read the information at http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html an understandably so because it completely disproves all that you claim. But you know that.
Your deception lies in your failure to disclose that the Trinity doctrine does not teach that the created humanity of Jesus is the Almighty, but just a creature. Neither do you distinguish immanent from economic trinity (perhaps you don't understand it). Furthermore, evidence of a trinune natured God can be found all over the Bible, as well as refererences to the 3 in 1 that you speak of. The most obvious is Matthew 28:19. I explained it this way on the web site:
The Trinity in the Bible: Elemental Trinitarianism is evident throughout the Bible
While the Jehovah's Witnesses are correct in stating that the word “Trinity” is not found in the Bible, neither is the word “monotheism” so its absence has no bearing on whether the underlying basis for Trinitarianism exists in the Bible. Careful objective study of the Bible reveals strong scriptural support for recognizing by logical necessity the existence of a triune God - not three Gods, but one God Almighty existing in three hypostasis (Persons) who share the one divine essence. Jesus Christ was sent in part to reveal and explain this threefold nature of God.
Early theologians who strove for a deeper understanding of the doctrine, as well as those of the Middle Ages and modernists, whether Catholic, Protestant or independent, recognize in Scripture an elemental Trinitarianism (Catholic Encyclopedia, 295).
It is clear on one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, a product of centuries’ reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - and hence an elemental Trinitarianism - went back to the period of Christian origins. Contemporary studies on the ancient Christian creeds have done much to bring this out.” (ibid., 300)
J.N.D. Kelly attests that “[s]trictly triadic formulas and the triadic frame of mind so clearly mark at least later NT compositions, that the exegete and the historian must recognize a quasi-independent Trinitarianism coexisting with the purer and simpler forms of NT Christology” (ibid., 300). Among the earliest Christians there was “… consistent worship of God in a Trinitarian pattern and the practice of baptism into the threefold name of God” (Encyclopedia of Religion, 54).
18) The Trinity in the Old Testament [ Top ]
While some downplay references to the Trinity in the Old Testament, many Bible scholars find implicit evidence and foreshadowing of God’s triune nature even if the early Israelites failed to pick up on it. The fact that such evidence is limited is immaterial because the triune God was subsequently and intentionally revealed to man by and through Christ, and better understood in the centuries that followed. This progressive revelation was the Almighty’s prerogative, and reasonable in light of the polytheistic pagan nations surrounding Israel at that time. It was necessary to contrast Israel’s polytheistic, many-god worshipping neighbors with a monotheistic God rather than a triune-natured God which could be confused with tritheism, the worship of three Gods. It was Jehovah’s intent to distinguish Himself from false pagan idols.
Though the doctrine is not developed in the Old Testament, it is implicit in the divine self-disclosure from the very beginning, …in a very rudimentary form. This is found not only in isolated passages but interwoven in the entire organism of the Old Testament Revelation. (New Bible Dictionary, 1298)
The mystery of the Holy Trinity was not revealed to the Chosen People of the OT. On account of the polytheistic religions of Israel’s pagan neighbors it was necessary for the teachers of Israel to stress the oneness of God. In many places of the OT, however, expressions are used in which some of the Fathers of the Church saw references or foreshadowing of the Trinity. The personified use of such terms as the Word of God [Ps 32(33.6] and the Spirit of God (Is 63.14) is merely by way of poetic license, though it shows that the minds of God’s people were being prepared for the concepts that would be involved in the forthcoming revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 306)
Early theologians saw semblances of the triune activities of God - wisdom, word and spirit - embryonic members of the Trinity, and disclosure of the Trinity in the appearance of the three men to Abraham (Genesis 18) (Oxford, 1207).
The earliest foreshadowing is contained in the narrative of the creation, where Elohim is seen to create by means of Word and Spirit (Gn. i. 3). Here we are for the first time introduced to the Word put forth as a personal creative power, and to the Spirit as the bringer of life and order to the creation. There is revealed thus early a threefold centre of activity. God as Creator thought out the universe, expressed His thought in a Word, and made His Spirit its animating principle, thus indicating that the universe was not to have a separate existence apart from God or opposed to Him.
It is thought that Gn. I. 26 (‘And God said, Let us make man in our image and after our likeness’) implies that a revelation of the Triune God had been given to man when first created, in as much as he was to be given the divine fellowship, but that the consciousness was afterwards lost with the loss of his original righteousness. (New Bible Dictionary, 1298)
19) The Trinity in the New Testament [ Top ]
a) Matthew 28:19 ----------------------------------------------------------
The most explicit reference to the Trinity in the Gospels is Christ’s baptismal formula found at Matthew 28:19: “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit …” (NAB). “This is perhaps the clearest expression in the New Testament of the Trinitarian belief” (NAB notes, Matthew 28:19).
Not surprisingly, the Jehovah's Witnesses don’t see it that way, stating: “Do these verses say that God, Christ and the holy spirit constitute a Trinitarian godhead, that the three are equal in substance, power and eternity? No, they do not, no more than listing three people, such as Tom, Dick, and Harry, means that they are three in one” (Should You Believe, Chapter 9).
The Jehovah's Witnesses have missed the point entirely. No credible scholar claims that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one just because they are numerated like Tom, Dick and Harry. That’s silly. The unity of the three Persons or hypostases - the oneness of the three and singleness of essence - is indicated by the singular use of “name” by which all three Persons are referred to, not their plural “names.” If, for instance, the Son were merely a separate subordinate creature as the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach, Jesus would have them baptizing in the “names” of the Father and Son, at a minimum. But he did not. Having all the same “name” puts Father, Son and Holy Spirit on par, on an equal plane with all which this connotes.
“Name” (Greek Onoma), “… as a noun, is used in general of the “name” by which a person or thing is called ….” It also stands “for all that a “name” implies, of authority, character, rank, majesty, power, excellence, etc., of everything that a name covers” (Strong and Vine’s, 178). The phrase “in the name” may represent the “authority of Christ” … or “in the power of” … or “in recognition of the authority of …. (MT 18:20; cf 28:19; …” (ibid.).
Under either scenario a Trinitarian formula is patently obvious. If the “name” into which believers are to be baptized is that by which a person or thing is called then Father, Son and Holy Spirit share the same name, that of God, and all three are called by God’s name; three Persons in unity sharing the divine essence, yet distinct. It equates the three Persons, and ascribes to them essence, power and eternity equally.
The Jehovah's Witnesses reject the conventional application of “name” at Matthew 28:19 and argue that “name” does not mean a personal name at all, that “God” is not a name like Jehovah, but means “power or authority” (Should You Believe, Chapter 8). So, “‘baptism in the name of the holy spirit recognizes the authority of the spirit, that it is from God and functions by divine will” (ibid.).
Actually, “I AM” can’t be considered a name in the conventional English sense either, but that is what Jehovah said His name is. A name can have wide application, as Isaiah attests about Jesus, whose name is “God.”
And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 NWT)
Another weakness in their approach is that baptism under the Jehovah's Witnesses’ interpretation would be into three separate and unequal powers and authorities, with the Son possessing less than the Father because they believe Father and Son are not equal, since their Jesus is nothing more than a man, always inferior (Should You Believe, Chapter 7). This would conceivably require at least two separate baptisms but that would contravene Ephesians 4:5 which says that there is only “one baptism.”
For the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Holy Spirit is only a power similar to electrical current flowing from God (Should You Believe, Chapter 8). But if that were the case, baptizing into the names of God and the Holy Spirit would be redundant, ascribing the same authority twice; it ascribes an authority and power of the Holy Spirit distinct from God, but that’s not what Jesus meant.
The expression “in the name of” (literally, ‘into the name’), indicates a dedication or consecration to the one named. Thus Christian Baptism is a dedication or consecration to God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Since the Son and the Holy Spirit are mentioned here on a par with the Father, the passage clearly teaches that they are equally divine with the Father, who is obviously God. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 306)
“From the vocabulary and grammar of the Greek original, the intention of the hagiographer to communicate singleness of essence in three distinct Persons was easily derived” (ibid., 299).
b) 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 ----------------------------------------------- [ Top ]
Likewise, 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 does not attempt to prove equality and unity simply by listing “Spirit,” “Lord” and “God.” Rather, the three are put on a par, thus indicating their divine nature, and consequently, their omnipotence, omniscience and eternal existence. In speaking of the spiritual gifts or charisms that are bestowed upon Christians, Paul says:
There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; there are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. (NAB)
This passage witnesses to the doctrine of the Trinity by ascribing the various charisms, viz, gifts, ministries, and workings, to the Spirit, the Lord (the Son), and God (the Father), respectively. Since all these charisms of their very nature demand a divine source, the three Persons are put on a par, thus clearly indicating their divine nature while at the same time maintaining the distinction of Persons (Catholic Encyclopedia, 306).
The Spirit is the donor in each instance and each gift contributes to the corporate life of the body of Christ, the Church. The one Spirit, Lord or God, is at work in the body; the embryonic Trinitarian formula is to be noted, ….” (C.S.C. Williams, Peake’s Commentary on the Bible [London: Nelson and Sons, Ltd., 1964], 961) (Peake’s Commentary)
c) 2 Corinthians 13:13 (14) ----------------------------------------------- [ Top ]
2 Corinthians 13:13 (14) provides “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the charity (love) of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” “[This] is one of the clearest Trinitarian passages in the New Testament” (NAB notes 13, 11-13). What makes Paul’s “use of these terms so significant is that they appear against a strictly monotheistic background” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 306).
This blessing is perhaps a quotation from the early Christian liturgy. The grammatical usage in this blessing, especially the subjective genitives …. gives us a basis not only for the distinction of persons, but also for their equality in as much as all the benefits are to flow from the one Godhead.” (ibid.)
2 Corinthians 13:13(14) “not only sums up the apostolic teaching, but it interprets the deeper meaning of the Trinity in Christian experience, the saving grace of the Son as that which gives access to the love of the Father and the communion of the Spirit” (New Bible Dictionary, 1299).
d) Romans 8:9-11------------------------------------------------------------- [ Top ]
Romans 8:9-11 also makes a strong statement that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ both dwell in the believer, and accordingly the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ since there is only one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), an indwelling exemplified in a true Trinitarian fashion: God is in you, Christ is in you, and the Holy Spirit which proceeds from both (in the Latin Western tradition) is in you the true believer, all existing as one principle ultimately.
But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Sprit of God really dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. (Romans 9:8-11 RSV)
Jehovah is the spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:17 NWT; “the Lord is the Spirit” RSV)
“[T]here are many other implicit references, for example at Jesus’ baptism, where the Father speaks from the cloud and the Spirit descends as a dove upon the Son (Matthew 3.16-17). In Paul’s letters there are many examples of Father, Son and Spirit being closely linked in their activity. [I]n Ephesians he speaks of ‘one Spirit …one Lord … one God and Father’ (4.4-6). In 2 Corinthians he speaks of God establishing us in Christ and giving us the Spirit as a first installment (1.21-2). He said to the Galatians that ‘God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’ (4.6)” (Oxford, 1208).
JD II
