Is the NWT the best...

by Narkissos 44 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  quietlyleaving

  no bible can hide its heterogeneity - and if for instance a couple were to sit down like cognac and her hubby and just read the NWT, imo its going to be challenging for both the xjw and the jw. The xjw would have to try not to interject and let the bible display its own ability to stimulate inspiration and meaning each for his/or herself. The JW has to counter the problem of bringing in aides to bible reading. But I think its worth a shot.
• 

  possible-san

  The matter which Mr. Chalam describes is always stereotyped.

  Since I got bored about that talk, please tell me another talk.

  I had pointed out to you that only the NWT is not the translation which has restored the divine name.
  Moreover, you should also check the Hebrew New Testament of the UBS (United Bible Societies).
  You should do against the UBS.
  
  
  My website is here.
  http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/pages/link/link03.html
  http://godpresencewithin.web.fc2.com/pages/link/link05.html
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Chalam (and other Christians)

  There is no doubt that references to Jesus are minimized when they should not be in the NT of the NWT, sometimes even replacing Jesus with Jehovah. In that, it is a bible with an agenda. Your reference to Rom 9:13 is a good one, but also one that JW's counterpoint with a quotation back to Joel 2:32, where the tetragrammaton is found.

  I have no interest in arguing dogma on this subject. In specifically answering Narkissos question ( Is the NWT the best WT pub ever?), then in that context, I would have to say that it is, esp compared with others pubs they produce. It can be a clumsy translation, we already know their clear agenda, but at the end of the day, Franz took years to compare master transcripts, etc ,to come up with their own translation of the bible. As flawed as it is, that is also somewhat of an accomplishment.

  If any Christian wants to pick apart certain translated passages that have been purposely skewed to support a teaching, I have no qualm with that.

  The bible is clear, there is one name only.

  To say that the bible is clear on something like this is not true, simply because we have YHWH in the OT, Jesus in the new, each very conspicuous by their absence in the opposing "Testaments" of the bible. Clarity is not something, with all respect, that the bible carries the burden of. Now, if one wants to say that, for example, with the aid of holy spirit, the bible speaks in a certain way to them, who am I to say that this is not the case? That would be at best, personal revelation though, and not an example of clarity that comes from a simple reading of the texts.
• 

  LouBelle

  hell no!

  Even though it is the bible it has been deliberately altered to changed the meaning of scriptures to back up their doctrines. That means their bible is a tool DELIBERATE deception.
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Jeff,

  Thanks for your reply.

  Yes I have have that very counterpoint from Reniaa, Joel 2:32. Unfortunately, she didn't answer the very next question I posed because there is no plausible, "according to the NWT who's name should I call on for salvation, Jesus or Jehovah"?

  Because the way they have "translated" Romans 10:13 and Acts 2:21 means the reader is faced with two choices. However, reading the NWT at Acts 4 makes it plain, there is only one name to call upon for salvation. There is no such confusion in other bibles which correctly render kurios as Lord, not a "Jehovah".

  The main question is "what is the bible for"?

  For me, it talks of Jesus and of life, they are one and the same.

  John 5:39-40 (English Standard Version)

  39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

  For the JW it talks of "jehovah". This is they name they adore, lift up, preach, give their lives to and pin their everlasting hopes on, not Jesus.

  This is a most powerful passage on the subject of JWs. The Lord told me to look it up when directly after I had spend a fruitless morning talking to a couple of them.

  1 Peter 2:4-10 (New International Version)

  The Living Stone and a Chosen People

  4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:
  "See, I lay a stone in Zion,
  a chosen and precious cornerstone,
  and the one who trusts in him
  will never be put to shame." 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
  "The stone the builders rejected
  has become the capstone," 8 and,
  "A stone that causes men to stumble
  and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

  9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

  Jesus is precious to me but not to JWs. I trust in Him but they trust in "jehovah". They reject Jesus and they stumble over Him, trying to get to "jehovah". They disobey the message i.e. the gospel of salvation in the bible. I understand what you are saying with regard to the OT vs the NT. This is a good phrase, "in the Old Testament Jesus is concealed, in the New Testament He is revealed". No wonder Jesus came with such outlandish and brazen comments such as this.

  John 14:8-9 (New International Version)

  8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

  9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

  Or this

  John 10:30 (New International Version)

  30 I and the Father are one."

  Yes He is fully man but fully God

  Philippians 2:5-9 (New International Version)

  5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
  6 Who, being in very nature God,
  did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
  7 but made himself nothing,
  taking the very nature

  of a servant,
  being made in human likeness.
  8 And being found in appearance as a man,
  he humbled himself
  and became obedient to death—
  even death on a cross!
  9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
  and gave him the name that is above every name

  For me I quote the bible because I read these truths right off the page. If you are not finding anything come clearly out of text as you read the bible, then ask Jesus via His Holy Spirit to reveal something John 14

  Without Him you might as well give up.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  AllTimeJeff

  Hi Stephen

  I totally agree with the contextual translation most bibles have of this passage as opposed to the NWT. You will never hear me defend that. I do believe that the surviving MSS of Romans does indeed refer to Jesus, not Jehovah. (does this in any way affect my own personal views of the bible as a source of revelation? No.)

  As I said on my first response to this thread:

  Franz obviously had an agenda, and that is why, via the "J" references, Jehovah pops up 237 times in the NT. But beyond that, and a few JW friendly translation regarding Trinity proof texts, it really is just another bible.

  Of course, there were trinitarians who did the exact same thing. Bible's will always reflect some theological bias, or perhaps to say it in a less offensive way, the point of view of the translator. Even an "impartial" (read: scholar) translator, will have that flavor come through.

  Beyond that, there really isn't much more to say. The NWT is the most ambitious attempt by JW's to produce something lasting and serious, even if it is from their point of view, which is how my comments towards Narkissos question should be viewed in context.
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  Chalam

  Hi Jeff,

  I agree with the points you are making save the value of the NWT.

  For me, the bible is like this, a manual for a car. Take a read of the manual, make sure gas is in the tank, keys in the ignition, hit the throttle and turn the key. Before too long you are on the freeway getting somewhere fast. Now, once in a while you might break down, have an accident, run out of fuel or such but the manual will get you going again. Even better, the manual contains a map and compass. Also, let's not forget there is satellite navigation (the Holy Spirit).

  Now the problem with JWs is they are sitting in their car, they have gas but no key (Jesus). They think they are going somewhere, "paradise earth is just around the corner" but they are not, they are still parked on the drive! The read the manual a lot. However, someone has sneaked a tampered manual into the car, told them it is the real one and stolen the original. This manual talks about the key once in a while but focuses on the engine, the roar, the power, how it can burn up any motor on the road. Also the essential pages where it say to put the key in the ignition and turn have been torn out.

  The sat nav tells them periodically to go and get the key but they ignore it and put it on silent mode. Before too long they turn it off all together. They invite plenty of people to jump in their "jehovah wagon" and come along for the ride, the views are great and the destination is going to be awesome.

  Some seem to like being in the car, others want to get out when they realise they are going nowhere and have been lied to. It is then that they find that the doors are locked. A few manage to escape and find a car which actually has a key in the ignition and goes somewhere. Also, there seems to be a lot of squabbling and a lack of love in the car. Some find it strange as the car is clearly painted in large letters "jehovah wagon love tours". However, people inside talk incessantly of powerful cars, big crashes, sounding the horn and running people off the road that get in the way. Once in a while they roll the window down and unceremoniously throw someone out for pointing out the bad atmosphere or the fact they aren't actually going anywhere.

  Once or twice someone comes past and sees the JWs all in the "jehovah wagon", pretending to be driving around following the super accurate manual and directions. The friendly passer by points out there is clearly no key in the ignition and they still on the drive. They tell them where to get the key but the JWs are indignant, they have the key, they can hear the engine roaring and they are tearing around from town to town doing "jehovah's work".

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Narkissos

  Thank you for your replies (even the off-topic ones)

  Once again, I didn't mean to discuss whether the NWT is the best, the worst, or a relatively good, decent, mediocre or bad bible. This topic is discussed every other week and I felt like approaching the value of the NWT from another angle, i.e. as a WT publication.

  The fact is that with the NWT JWs now have their own Bible. This can be seen as the ultimate move toward a Christian "sect" or "cult" status, separating them even more from the rest of Christianity. And considered "worst" from this perspective.

  But otoh, now JWs have a Bible they trust and can use without any mental reservation, and it still doesn't sound quite like any other WT publication. The pain they have to explain WT doctrine even using the NWT, and more importantly what they will get from it if they do read it, all of this is a major if not the main source of questioning for the average JW. Reading the Gospel of John (even) in the NWT with the weak WT christology in mind is a challenge. I would say reading the Gospel of Matthew (even) in the NIV with Evangelical "faith-not-works" theology in mind is no smaller challenge. Of course you may do it many times with blinkers on, but sooner or later you may realise what it actually says.
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  Chalam

  Thank you for your replies (even the off-topic ones)

  Oops, was that me? I am sure I was consistently discussing how the NWT is clearly the worst bible.

  Looks like I didn't read the post carefully enough :( OK, to answer the question in one sense I think actually the other WT publications are worse than the NWT. There are those here who have read the NWT and then found that it doesn't stack up, even against the corrupted verses and thus gone on to find Jesus (password protected a case in point). That said, I am in a quandry, tampering with the bible is a dire thing Revelation 22:18-20 All in all, God will save who He chooses. it doesn't matter if they are reading the Satanic Bible, His plans do not fail Isaiah 55 All the best, Stephen
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  bluecanary

  Stephen, I love your jehovah wagon metaphor.