by Megachusen 13 Replies latest jw friends
Quite a few of the ex-JW's on this site are either Atheist or Agnostic. I figured that it would be interesting if the theist side could make their case for God's existence and then non-theists could either debate the points or concede, depending on the arguments given.
So, if you believe in a God, please tell us your most convincing argument for why we should aswell.
as a severe agnostic........i just cant get past how amazing everything is.....from the atom and molecule and cells......to the amazing ocean and land creatures......to the awesome universe.......and repeatedly incredible orgasms where we usually still mention god a bit............oompa
I posted this on another thread awhile ago, but this is well suited for this thread too: What more could you need?
Scientist discovered a “map” of four DNA bases that carry the ability to sustain life. These bases, known as chromosomes, are paired differently for each person. Human DNA contains 23 pairs of chromosomes, made up of hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, and their acidic counterparts. Encoded within these elements is an amazing blueprint of life that proves the Creator has put His own unique stamp upon every person. This stamp is actually His name as revealed to Moses thousands of years ago.
It was from the burning bush that the Almighty revealed his character as the great “I AM.” This name is the tetragrammaton of the Hebrew letters yod, hey, waw, hey. “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you. The Almighty said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, `Y H W H , the mighty one of our fathers… This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation,” Exodus 3:14,15. The Almighty has given us His name as a sign of His existence and an avenue of communication. However, translators have hidden this Hebrew name in English Bibles. In the Scriptures, the Sacred name of YHWH is used whenever the English words “LORD” or “GOD” appear in all capital letters. YHWH is used almost 7,000 times throughout the Bible as the only and unique name of the Mighty One of Israel. Isaiah corroborates this: "I am YHWH; that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, " Isaiah 42:7. Jeremiah adds his confirmation: "They shall know that my name is YHWH," in chapter 16 verse 21. While Amos 5:8 says, "YHWH is his name." The book of Zechariah declares: "In that day there shall be one YHWH, and his name one." The Creator’s Name is YHWH.
Now, compare this four-lettered name to the four elements that make up human DNA and discover an ancient secret of creation. “The key to translating the code of DNA into a meaningful language is to apply the discovery that converts elements to letters. Based upon their matching values of atomic mass, hydrogen becomes the Hebrew letter Yod (Y), nitrogen becomes the letter Hey (H), oxygen becomes the letter Wav (V or W), and carbon becomes Gimel (G). These substitutions now reveal that the ancient form of YHWH’s name, YHWH, exists as the literal chemistry of our genetic code. Through this bridge between YHWH’s name and the elements of modern science, it now becomes possible to reveal the full mystery and find even greater meaning in the ancient code that lives as each cell of our bodies.
When we substitute modern elements for all four letters of YHWH’s ancient name, we see a result that, at first blush, may be unexpected. Replacing the final H in YHWH with its chemical equivalent of nitrogen, YHWH’s name becomes the elements hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen (HNON) — all colorless, odorless, and invisible gases! In other words, replacing 100 percent of YHWH’s personal name with the elements of this world creates a substance that is an intangible, yet very real form of creation! This is not to suggest that YHWH is simply a wispy gas made of invisible elements. Rather, it’s through the very name that YHWH divulged to Moses over three millennia ago that our world and the foundation of life itself became possible. YHWH tells us that in the form of hydrogen, the single most abundant element of the universe, He is a part of all that has ever been, is, and will be.
Indeed, in the earliest descriptions of YHWH, we are told that He is omnipresent and takes on a form in our world that cannot be seen with our eyes. Thus, He can be known only through His manifestations. The Sepher Yetzirah describes this nonphysical form of YHWH’s presence as the “Breath” of YHWH: “Ten Sefirot of Nothingness: One is the Breath of the Living YHWH, Life of worlds. This is the Holy Breath.”
Additionally, the first chapters of Genesis relate that it is in a nonphysical form that the Creator was present during the time of creation (Genesis 1:2). It was “the spirit of YHWH” that first moved over the face of the earth.
Substituting modern elements for the ancient letters, it is clear that although we share in the first three letters representing 75 percent of our Creator’s name. While the presence of YHWH is the invisible and intangible form of the three gases hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen, the last letter of our name is the "stuff" that gives us the color, taste, texture, and sounds of our body: carbon. The one letter that sets us apart from YHWH is also the element that makes us "real" in our world - carbon.
Through both the secret letter codes of antiquity, and the literal translation of DNA as an alphabet, we’re shown that something about our existence remains lasting and eternal. We share that never-ending quality with our Creator through a full seventy-five percent of the elements that define our genetic code,” wrote Gregg Braden in his book The God Code.
Oompa...obviously, Allah must exist.
As an agnostic I am swayed towards belief in a designer, I can't characterize he/she/it as "God" because that brings along a whole bunch of assumptions.
I couldn't tell you why you should or shouldn't believe in God. Can we really say there is evidence one way or another? Isn't it subjective?
Today I classify myself an agnostic. I read a lot. They say the Devil is in the details.
I say so is God.
If you want to see God you will see him.
If you want to see no God you will see that.
Thats the crazy thing we see what we want to see.
If we want to see confusion and kaos we see that
If we want to see order we see that.
I would like to error on the side of God, sort of as an insurance policy.
The best argument I can make is if you find comfort in believing there is no God.
go for it.
If you find comfort believing there is a God go for that.
The God I am searching for doesnt resemble the God of the Watchtower.
The God I am searching for is the God of my understanding..
The best argument I can make is we are to complicated and intricate not to have a design.
You can take apart a watch, a computer, a car engine or whatever you like put all the parts in a
washing machine, set the cycle for ever and your never going to get a watch, a car engine, a computer
back. Everything needs a maker.
That doesnt answer who made God. But you didnt ask thats question, and I dont have an answer
for that question.
Still, just because we dont know who made god doesnt mean that their is not a God, maker, designer.
Thats the best I can do.
If I was on a jury, I'd be hung.
I would conclude there is overwhelming evidence that there is a God
I would say the perponderance of the evidence says there is a God.
Then I would say will the real/ true God please stand up.
Who is this guy? Where is he?
He's got everyones underwear tied up in knots.
Yes. One time he talked to a man in Jerusalem named Jesus and the Jews that heard said, "there was no voice, that is just thunder"
"Based upon their matching values of atomic mass, hydrogen becomes the Hebrew letter Yod (Y), nitrogen becomes the letter Hey (H), oxygen becomes the letter Wav (V or W), and carbon becomes Gimel (G)."
Wow, that's impressive. It's too bad it isn't true.
Greg 's whole argument is based off of numerology. He takes four elements (Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen, and Oxygen) and takes their atomic numbers (which he says are 1, 5, 6, and 3) and applies the Hebrew alphabet's letters to the numbers. This gives him:
1: Yod(Y)
3: Het(H)
5: Vav(V/W)
6: Gimel(G)
The problem is 1, 5, 6, and 3 aren't the atomic masses of those four elements. The real atomic masses are as follows:
Hydrogen: 1.00794
Oxygen: 15.9994
Nitrogen: 14.0067
Carbon: 12.0107
If my understanding of the placement of the Hebrew letters in the alphabet is correct this would mean that instead of YHWG, you would get:
1: Aleph(A)
15: Nun(N)
14: Mem(M)
12: Kaf(K)
How does Greg get around this huge issue? With more bullshit numerology, of course! This is paraphrased from a critique I found on Greg's book:
The holes in his theory are very easy to spot and as wide as the Grand Canyon. Braden links the elements hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen and carbon to the Hebrew Alphabet with "atomic mass". But the respective atomic masses of these elements, which he gives as 1, 5, 6 and 3, are actually 1, 14, 16 and 12. To make the evidence fit, he has resorted to a numerological trick: 14 becomes 1 + 4 = 5; 16 becomes… well 6 (it does have 6 valence electrons though!); and 12 becomes 1 + 2 = 3. Also, the 1st letter of the Hebrew Alphabet is actually alep. Yod, the Y in his YH VG translation, is Hebrew letter number 10. But Braden justifies calling 10 a 1 because 10 = 1 + 0 = 1.
The problem with this sort of fiddling, to get the evidence to fit the theory, is that it invalidates the "statistician's probability" above. If unscientifically adding numbers together is okay, which he has done with nearly all his "evidence", then the following must be valid: nitrogen, with atomic mass 14, could equally pertain to Hebrew letter 14 (1 + 4 =5), or even letter 15 by just getting rid of the 1 as he did with oxygen; oxygen, with atomic mass 16, could also be Hebrew letter 15 (5+1=6) or Hebrew letter 16; and carbon with atomic mass 12, could also be Hebrew letter 12 or even 21 (2 + 1 =3). The link between these "alphabets" now seems more tenuous, and the 1 in 234,256 statistic starts to look a bit optimistic.
I think that sums things up quite nicely.
You asked me what more I would need? How about some real evidence.
Many ex-JWs still believe in God, in fact I would think more, than don't.
Those of us who became JWs , not brought up as JWs, became one because we had a belief in God.
Just because we made a mistake and discovered we had joined a man-made organisation , doesn't mean we lost that belief.
Many leave the JWs saying they no longer believe in God because of the Watchtower.
Maybe they just covering up the fact that they were taken in by a mind-controlling organisation.
And don't want to admit it.
Its never their gullibility that led them into it.
