Marry Christmas Jan-evolution goes down in flames

by clash_city_rockers 75 Replies latest jw friends

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    Darwin on Trial is the title of a book on evolution that has ruffled the feathers of the secular scientific community. Though a Christian, author Philip Johnson critiques evolutionary theory from a secular standpoint as he examines the philosophical games many scientists play to protect their evolutionary ideology.
    Evolution as Fact and Theory
    Johnson, a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley, attacks head-on the often-heard statement that evolution is both a fact and a theory, an evolutionary dogma that has been a major source of confusion for a long time. Evolution is a fact, Darwinists say, in that they know that evolution has occurred. It is a theory in that they are far from understanding the mechanisms by which evolution has occurred. In the eloquent words of evolutionist Stephen J. Gould,

    "Evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas which explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away while scientists debate rival theories for explaining them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air pending the outcome. And human beings evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered. (Evolution as Fact and Theory)
    There are numerous problems with this explanation. First, if evolution is a fact, then evolution is equivalent to data. This hardly seems appropriate. Second, the comparison of evolution to gravity is misleading. We can go into any apple orchard and observe apples falling from trees. But where do we go to observe humans evolving from apelike ancestors? Apples falling from trees fits into the category of science we can term operations science which utilizes data that are repeatable and observable at any time. Humans evolving from apelike ancestors, however, would fall under the category of origins science. Origins science involves the study of historical events that occur just once and are not repeatable. We can only assemble what evidence we have and construct a plausible scenario, much like the forensic scientist Quincy did in the old television show. The so-called facts of human evolution, by Gould's own definition, are the fossils and the rock layers they are found in. That humans evolved from apelike ancestors is a theory that attempts to explain and interpret these facts."

    Later in the same article Gould states the real definition of fact under which evolution fits. He begins by saying that fact does not necessarily mean absolute certainty. Then he says, "In science, fact' can only mean confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.'" In other words, evolution is a fact because a majority of scientists say so, and you are "perverse" if you do not agree. We quickly begin to see that evolution holds a privileged place in the scientific community, which will go to extraordinary lengths to preserve that status.

    A Theory in Crisis
    Johnson's book, although the most recent, is not the first to question evolution's status as fact. Michael Denton, an agnostic medical researcher from Australia, caused quite a storm with his 1985 book, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. Denton's point is that orthodox Darwinism has such a stranglehold on the biological sciences that contradictory evidences from fields such as paleontology, developmental biology, molecular biology, and taxonomy are passed off as intramural squabbles about the process of evolution. The "fact" of evolution is never really in question.
    Like Johnson, Denton points out that Darwinism is not a fact. It is a mechanistic theory that is still without a mechanism. While moths and fruit flies do respond to environmental stimuli, our observations of this process have been unable to shed any light on the means by which we have come to have horses and woodpeckers and wasps. The origin of complex adaptations has remained a mystery. The fossil record is pockmarked with gaps in the most embarrassing places. Darwin predicted innumerable transitional forms between major groups of organisms, yet the few transitions that are suggested are surrounded in controversy.

    Another "fact" that fails to withstand Denton's scrutiny is the assumption that similar biological structures owe their similarity to a common ancestry. Homology, which studies these similarities, assumes for example that the forelimbs of amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals are similar in structure because they evolved from the same source. Denton reveals, however, that these same classes of vertebrates go through remarkably different stages of early embryological development. This was certainly not a prediction of Darwinian evolution.

    Even more importantly, Denton reports that comparison of the sequences of proteins from different organisms actually supports the pre-Darwin system of classification, which was based on creationist principles.

    Also, the many chemical evolution scenarios are caught in numerous intractable dilemmas that offer little hope of resolution (see Scientific American, Feb. 1991).

    Rules of Science and Evolution
    Another issue that Philip Johnson treats in his book is the fact that the rules of science tend to be stated and followed differently depending on whether you are talking about evolution or creation. Professor Johnson refers specifically to Judge William Overton's decision striking down the Arkansas Creation/Evolution Balanced Treatment law. In his written decision, which was reprinted in its entirety in the prestigious journal Science, Judge Overton reiterated five essential characteristics of science that were given by opponents of the bill during the trial. Science, in the judge's opinion, must be
    Guided by natural law
    Explanatory by reference to natural law
    Testable against the empirical world
    Tentative in its conclusions--that is, not necessarily the final word
    Falsifiable
    Judge Overton decided that creation- science does not meet these criteria since it appeals to the supernatural and is therefore not testable, falsifiable, or explanatory by reference to natural law. Johnson points out that philosophers of science have been very critical of the definitions of science given in the decision and have suggested that the expert witnesses provided by the ACLU attorneys got away with a philosophical snow job. Critics have pointed out that scientists are not the least bit tentative about their basic commitments, especially about their commitment to evolution. From my own experience, all one has to do is attend any scientific meeting to see that some scientists are anything but tentative about their ideas. Also, scientists study the effects of phenomena (such as gravity) that they cannot explain by natural law. Finally, critics have noted that creation-science, as proposed by the Arkansas law, does make empirical claims (such as a young earth, worldwide flood, special creation). Mainstream science has said these claims are demonstrably false, which raises the interesting question, How can creation-science be both unfalsifiable and demonstrably false at the same time?

    Johnson clearly reveals that what is really being protected by these rules of science is not necessarily evolution, but the philosophical doctrine known as naturalism. According to Johnson, "Naturalism assumes the entire realm of nature to be a closed system of material causes and effects, which cannot be influenced by anything from the outside."

    While this doctrine does not deny the existence of God, it certainly makes Him irrelevant. Science, therefore, becomes our only reliable path to knowledge. The issue as Johnson states it, is

    ...Whether this philosophical viewpoint is merely an understandable professional prejudice or whether it is the objectively valid way of understanding the world. That is the real issue behind the push to make naturalistic evolution a fundamental tenet of society, to which everyone must be converted.

    The consequence of this kind of thinking is that evolution is made the basis of ethical and religious statements, which is precisely what most evolutionists find repulsive about creation.

    Darwinist Religion
    A frequent refrain from evolutionists is that the evolution/creation debate is actually a collision between science and religion. If creationists would just realize their view is inherently religious and that evolution is the scientific view, then there would be little to disagree about. Evolution belongs in the science classrooms and creation belongs only in the philosophy and religion classrooms. What gets left behind in this discussion, either intentionally or unintentionally, are the very firm religious implications of atheistic naturalism with evolution as its foundation.
    We only need to look at a few sources to see the religious nature of evolution. The first source is the blatantly religious statements of certain evolutionists themselves. Philip Johnson quotes the evolutionist William Provine as stating quite categorically that

    Modern science, i.e., evolution, implies that there is no purpose, gods, or design in nature.
    There are no absolute moral or ethical laws.
    Heredity and environment determine all that man is.
    When we die, we die, and that is all there is.
    Evolution cannot produce a being that is truly free to make choices.
    Statements such as these make it quite clear: the belief that science and religion are different spheres of knowledge is complete nonsense.
    A second source that establishes the religious nature of evolution is the attacks of evolutionists on the God of the Bible using evolutionary principles. In his chapter on natural selection, professor Johnson provides an example from evolutionist Douglas Futuyma. Futuyma states that a Creator would never create a bird such as the peacock, whose six feet of bulky feathers make it easy prey for leopards. (Johnson turns the tables, however, by asking why natural selection would favor a peahen that lusts after males with life-threatening decorations.) It has always amazed me that people who claim that there is no God sure seem to have an intimate knowledge of what He would be like if He did exist. At any rate, if evolution can be used to discredit certain notions about the character of God, then evolution is indeed making religious statements.

    A third indication of the religious nature of evolution is the knee-jerk reaction of the evolutionary establishment against any statement that even hints that evolution is a tentative theory. In 1984, a group of scientists who are Christians but who do not identify themselves with creation scientists published a booklet entitled Teaching Science in a Climate of Controversy and mailed it to thousands of school teachers. The general idea of the booklet was to encourage open- mindedness on certain issues and controversies regarding evolution. Evolutionists quickly chided the publication as a clever disguise of creationism. To quote Johnson, "The pervasive message was that the ASA [American Scientific Affiliation] is a deceitful creationist front which disguises its Biblical literalist agenda under a pretense of scientific objectivity."

    In other words, anything that smells of God must be creationist and must be stamped out.

    Darwinist Education
    In the later chapters of Johnson's book, he analyzes the reaction of evolutionists to the challenges that have been leveled against them. It is here that he perhaps makes his greatest contribution. One of these reactions has been to wage what is essentially an evolutionary filibuster in educating the public about evolution. Johnson cites the experience of the British Museum of Natural History when it opened an exhibit on evolution in 1981. The exhibit presented Darwinian evolution as one idea and one possible explanation. Creation was cited as another view. This tentativeness was too much for some scientists to bear. A firestorm of criticism appeared in the British science journal Nature. Many were furious that the museum would actually go public with doubts about evolution, doubts that had previously been reserved for discussion among evolutionary scientists alone. The criticism was so severe that the museum eventually removed the exhibit and replaced it with a more "traditional" evolution exhibit. One of the Museum's top scientists, Colin Patterson, made a similar reversal concerning his view that he required faith in order to accept evolution. The criticism eventually convinced him to discontinue making these statements public.
    In the United States, the Science Framework adopted by the state of California in 1989, which has a significant effect on the content of science textbooks, contained this statement concerning evolution: "[Evolution] is an accepted scientific explanation and therefore no more controversial in scientific circles than the theories of gravitation and electron flow."

    This assertion is nothing more than an appeal to authority and has nothing to do with legitimate scientific evidence. As a result of this statement, evolution is being included in science textbooks at increasingly lower grade levels. The purpose is clear: if students can be indoctrinated in evolution early enough and often enough, perhaps all this controversy can be avoided.

    Conclusion
    In summary, I have pointed out that many critical predictions of Darwinian evolution have not been fulfilled. As a result, naturalistic atheism, the underlying philosophy of much of the evolutionary establishment, has been threatened. The response of many evolutionists has been to issue increasingly dogmatic statements that appeal to authority, not to evidence, play semantic word games where evolution is called both a fact and a theory, and wage an educational filibuster aimed at squelching all dissent. The evolutionists are not likely to abandon these tactics anytime soon, but until they do, they can expect even more criticism from scholars such as Professor Philip Johnson.

    hugs, kisses, and squeezes.........

    jr

  • JanH
    JanH

    clashy,

    What is it about you cretinists that make you go around creating new threads all the time instead of following standard board procedure and posting threads? You don't want your readers to see how you dodged questions, ignored facts and posted nonsensical rants in the previous thread? Or perhaps it's just that your ego requires your name listed on the board front page? You keep on asserting you have "pointede out flaws" in evolutionary theory, but you have not even attempted to do such a thing. You just repeat over and over again that such flaws exist, and refuse to give any specifics. You refuse to deal with the solid, overwhelming evidence for evolution posted here and also provided in linked articles.

    Instead you give us... a lawyer's opinion on something as far away from his field as could be imagined.

    How Rutherfordian can you actually be, Clashy?

    Johnson is a lawyer, and he approaches the subject like one. Thankfully, science is not conducted like lawyers do. A lawyer take an a priori position for his or her client, and spins the evidence in whatever way he needs to make it fit the opinion he's paid to make. That is what creationists do, of course, so it is fitting that he is one, I guess.

    Johnson is disingenious in misrepresenting Gould (do you remember I said you creationists like to do that to him?). It would be "perverse" to withhold provisional consent with facts simply because the evidence supports it so overwhelmingly, not because any number of scientists supports the idea. The crucial word is "evidence," crashy, and that is something sorely lacking from all your postings so far. We have assertions and dogmatic statements, but no actual arguments and no supporting facts.

    It is simply false that scientists go along with the majority. Religionists mostly do, yes, but science is actually about finding something new. Since you don't read scientific journals or textbooks, you don't know this. Scientists live by finding small or big flaws in previous held beliefs; this is all science is about. Mostly, of course, the results of experiments confirm old theories, but that is certainly less interesting and much less likely to be published in a prestigious journal than a truly new discovery.

    One example: When Wengerer proposed continental drift, it was a truly revolutionary claim. He was not attacked or vilified. His argument was persuasive, buyt he lacked an explanatory theory for how continental shelves could move around. When it was, much later, discovered that the Earth's core was "fluid", this mechanism was found! Continental drift went from being a minority hypothesis to an almost unversally accepted theory among geologers. Today his work is a cornerstone in earth sciences.

    In short, Kuhn (the only philosopher of science Johnson seems to know about) is mostly wrong, or at least, grossly misleading, about how science works.

    You keep repeating your old assertions, clashy. And you keep dodging pointed questions.

    Now, answer me this: if whales did not descend from land animals, why do whales have genes for (and occasionally pheontypic effects of) hind legs?

    No use running away or posting new threads, little cretinist coward. I will repeat the question as often as I need to.

    - Jan
    --
    "Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets

  • rem
    rem

    Clash,

    If I'm not mistaken, Johnson takes issue with the proposed MECHANISM of Evolution, not the FACT that it did happen. Johnson does not believe in creation as explained in the Bible. How does it feel to support the arguments of an Evolutionist, Clash?

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    Jan,
    This may sound like butt kissing, but who cares. I love your style of writing. Anything you post to, I try to read, because it is well thought out. Your thoughts on Evolution are right on.

    "Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford

    Jeremy's Hate Mail Hall Of Fame.
    http://hometown.aol.com/onjehovahside/ and [email protected]

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    Jan Asked: "Now, answer me this: if whales did not descend from land animals, why do whales have genes for (and occasionally pheontypic effects of) hind legs?"

    Reply: well my field of study is not biology so I can not be of much help you can try posting the question to some creation scientist I know that they can deffently give you an answer but me not giving you an answer to a tech question in Biology does no service to your case neither does silly straw-man attacks on Mr. Johnson do you any good. You have No defense against Phil Johnson's case until you answer him point by point I will hunt you down on this board.............

    Jan said:
    "In short, Kuhn (the only philosopher of science Johnson seems to know about) is mostly wrong, or at least, grossly misleading, about how science works."

    You never read Thomas Kuhn not even one page of "Structure of Scientific Revolutions" so keep silent on the issue. Once you do read Thomas Kuhn's book (yea right that will be the day) then we can have a friendly Q/A on the book and test each others comprehension on the subject.

    Jan writes: "It is simply false that scientists go along with the majority. Religionists mostly do, yes, but science is actually about finding something new. Since you don't read scientific journals or textbooks, you don't know this. Scientists live by finding small or big flaws in previous held beliefs; this is all science is about. Mostly, of course, the results of experiments confirm old theories, but that is certainly less interesting and much less likely to be published in a prestigious journal than a truly new discovery"

    Wrong, the problem here is that you do not think out philosophical systems to their logical conclusion. Sadly you just regurgitate the same on rhetoric with out thinking it through.

    Now I could bring my Logic Prof into the discussion maybe (if your teachable enough) he can go through the rudiments(basics) of Logic ya know modus ponuts, modus tollens, valid sentences.....

    Look you cannot answer the charge that evolution is false and give an account for the particular arguments brought up by Phil Johnson and others.

    Look, Michael Denton who is a pagan like you has a good case against evolution and Michael is your people(unbeliever) your own people say that evolution is wrong how can you give an account against that.

    You don't answer the objections because you know evolution is as crooked as the WT.

    The problem with you is Moral not Intellectual

    Your only hope is to trust Christ who justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5

    out,
    jr

  • patio34
    patio34

    Jayhawk,

    I have to second your post on JanH. They're always well-worth reading and often printing out.

    Pat

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    jayhawk1,

    Oklahoma is going to kick KU's butt

    go sooners..........

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Jan, rem, this _____? just admitted on another thread that he believes the bible's six day creation account is a literal six days. I don't know how you handle these cases in the pysch wards you work in, but here we just wipe the drool and take care not to engage on the subjects that get them riled up.

    Hey D Wiltshire, what do you think about them 6 days? Is he still doing a good job?

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    These snail/clash guys are obviously trolls.

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    rem (making another unrelyable and unstubstaniated claim, what's new):
    "If I'm not mistaken, Johnson takes issue with the proposed MECHANISM of Evolution, not the FACT that it did happen. Johnson does not believe in creation as explained in the Bible. How does it feel to support the arguments of an Evolutionist, Clash?"

    A quote from Phil Johnsons Book Defeating Darwinism:
    "Alternatively, we can reject evolution--in which case Microphone Man will stereotype us as premodern fundamentalists who insist on every detail of Genesis regardless of the evidence. Should we fight, or should we accommodate on the best terms we can get from the materialists? (Ch. 6: The Wedge, pp. 86-87)"

    another quote
    "If the materialist domination of the intellectual world is seriously called into question, it will be possible for the next generation of Christians to enter the universities as participants in the search for truth, not as outsiders who have no choice but to submit to materialist rules. Instead of retreating from the public world of reason into the protected territory of faith, they will be pressing the questions that need to be pressed. Here are just a few of them: Why should the life of the mind exclude the possibility that a mind is behind our existence? Why should we assume that modern materialist philosophies are the wave of the future instead of a holdover from the nineteenth century? If information is something fundamentally different from matter, what is the ultimate source of the information? Will science be harmed if it gives up its ambition to explain everything, or has that ambition only harmed science by tempting scientists to resort to unsound methods? If materialism is not an adequate starting point for rationality, what alternatives are there? (Ch. 8: Stepping off the Reservation, p. 115)"

    and another quote:
    "Natural selection, on the other hand, is supposed to be mindless and hence incapable of pursuing a distant goal. If natural selection could preserve a presently meaningless mutation because it might become useful later on when other new mutations occur, this would imply that evolution is a purposeful process, supervised by a preexisting mind. As we have seen, supervised evolution is a gradualist version of creationism. As materialists use the term, it is not evolution at all. (Ch. 5: Intelligent Design, pp. 74-75)"

    rem, before you embarras yourself and your cause please read the books.

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