Marry Christmas Jan-evolution goes down in flames

by clash_city_rockers 75 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  D wiltshire

  You really haven't anwered because you need to expain what Bad is?

  If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Cell. writes:

  "I would never be so ignorant as to argue for the morality of evolution, natural selection, etc.."

  
  Response: Cell, you are wise for it would be embarrasment to argue the moral marits of evolution. As we all know evolution fuled the athiestic murderious ideologies as Hitlers fatsious regiem, Stallen, Churmen, Moe and other marxist communist killers. Your igdominious athiesm has killed over a Billion poeple in the 20 Century 300 times more than any hetrodox sub-christian movement so don't play body count with the christians and claim christianity has killed thousands when your athiesm has killed so much more it is embarracing for you to even mention.

  Wendy said:
  

  "Again, you assume because I am an atheist, that I raise my children to be atheist. As a matter of fact, I am raising my children to be their own individual. If they choose to follow christianity then they can follow christianity, I will not stop them."

  Response: Come on Wendy. The very fact that you are hostile to Christianity, in an irenic manor gives a good president that you will be very hostile toward your children, if called by God to be a christian. If your kids got saved and joined the Orthodox Presbyterian Church(my church) or a Reformed Baptist church or Reformed Episcapalian church garanteed you will give them hell so don't sell me with this tolorance bull.

  Wendy Said: (snip)

  "I have stated that there is no clear definition for evil, you did not refute that, and cannot refute that"

  Response: I'm sure you do not live as if it were true. Were the events of 9/11 a clear definition of evil? How about if some punk kidnapper tries to kidnap your kids. You see you can not live by your assertion. So if you won't accept my refutation then by they way you live will refute your assertions. The reallity is that you do not live as if there is no clear definition of evil.

  as for God and his redemptive acts through out redemptive history pick a verse or two at a time and we will talk out them.

  ----------USC-------has no offence-------
  jr
• 

  mommy

  Clash,
  I will do this one last timeYou said:

  The very fact that you are hostile to Christianity, in an irenic manor gives a good president that you will be very hostile toward your children, if called by God to be a christian.

  Did you mean "ironic manner"? I am getting pretty good at brushing up on my phoenics skills with your postings Actually I am not hostile at all, and I would love for you to show me where I have been. I am trying to figure you out though. You answer maybe 10% of the questions given to you and it appears that you don't even read the responses. You still have not looked outside of your little box, and that is why I keep coming back I think. Again, I am not hostile, I am trying to show you that you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know me, yet you can tell me that I will be hostile with my children if they choose christiantity, after I tell you that they can choose christiantity. Hmmm, what am I doing wrong here Clash, how can I make you hear me?

  The events of September 11th, a very tragic day. About 1/2 hour after the second tower was hit, I was speaking to my children about the men who drove the plane into the building, and how it was sad they died too. See my daughter was mad at them, she didn't understand how someone could do such a horrible thing. I can't understand myself, but I do not call it evilness. I think those men really felt in their heart they were right, and they were willing to die for their beliefs. I shared this with my children, and she was unable to understand it, but my son did. He said "Mommy you are right, they have to really believe in something alot to die too." Are they evil for their willingness to die, to sacrifice themselves, in something they believed in 100%?

  I even feel that every act of violence should be looked at individually, and there is a "reason" behind it. What I would define as evil is an act of violence with no purpose, or medical reasoning, and there are very few of those. I have actually been racking my brain to try to remember the last act I defined as evil, and I cannot.

  Come on Clash, I want you to admit to me that you have it all wrong You are trying to lump together a group of people who do not believe as you do, and attach immortality to them. As I have said in every post to you, I do not blame you I once thought as you. And you know what, nobody tried to show me that I was wrong, they just told me I was wrong for my thinking. I finally came to the conclusion I was wrong, by watching and reading what those dreaded immoral atheist had to say.

  Psssst, it is okay to think different than me. It is not okay to imagine the worst of me because I think different than you.

  So how about it? Are we still going to lunch? Or do you think I may destroy any preconcieved ideas you may have? Would that be that bad though? Wow a whole paragraph of questions, I don't think that is grammatically correct, you may be rubbing off on me
  wendy

  Blind faith can justify anything ~ Richard Dawkins
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Wendy asked:

  "Did you mean "ironic manner"? I "

  Response: No, i meant irenic, as in a peace full conciliatory polemical dialog.

  Wendy posted:
  

  "I can't understand myself, but I do not call it evilness. I think those men really felt in their heart they were right, and they were willing to die for their beliefs. I shared this with my children, and she was unable to understand it, but my son did. He said "Mommy you are right, they have to really believe in something alot to die too." Are they evil for their willingness to die, to sacrifice themselves, in something they believed in 100%?"

  Responce: This is what happens when you abandon any absolute standard. So if some musslum in your naberhood blew up a bomb for his belief in Allah and that happen to kill your kids, then by your standard and definition "YOU SAID IT" that act is really not evil.
  Wendy, can't you see the absurdity of your position? people who are going to look at this conversation are going to get the impression that you are some sort of monster.

  Dialectically this is the problem follow the conversation:

  Wendy: There is no absolute truth!!!
  JR: Wendy, are you ABSOLUTLY true?

  Do you see the self-refuting nature of your dialectic?

  Wendy said:
  

  "and there is a "reason" behind it. What I would define as evil is an act of violence with no purpose, or medical reasoning, and there are very few of those. I have actually been racking my brain to try to remember the last act I defined as evil, and I cannot."

  Response: You have no absolute standard for right or wrong nor the ability to define evil this is your athiestic dilema. This is why you cant and I'll quote you "I have actually been racking my brain to try to remember the last act I defined as evil, and I cannot". Of course you can't define evil your an athiest and you have NO standard for what is evil or good. someone could argue for the necessity of shooting your kids because they are in the way. and you with your athiesm would have no ground to stand on to say he is wrong. Because according to you there is no standard for right or wrong.

  Wendy says:

  "So how about it? Are we still going to lunch? Or do you think I may destroy any preconcieved ideas you may have? Would that be that bad though? Wow a whole paragraph of questions, I don't think that is grammatically correct, you may be rubbing off on me

  
  response: Lunch is still on, and on me. what I'm trying to do is to get you to think logically to the conclusion your assertions. If I truly beleived that you live consistantly through all of your assertion I yould think you would be one of the most evilest person out there. But I don't I just want to demonstrate that you live inconsistantly from the athiestic world view you so desparately want to defend. No the only reason that you have'nt slip down into more of a cold more consistant athiest is because the grace of God, who has hept his restraint over you, keeping you from the irrational absurtity of the athiestic self-diefication of your world view.

  tootles with Korean Kimche noodles,
  jr
• 

  mommy

  Morning
  It appears that we keep missing each other at the bus station here, and this has really boiled down to one topic. Evil, and my reluctance to tell you that evil is clearly defined, and defined by god of the bible. I am sorry, but I cannot agree with you on this. I am going to bring up a question I posed earlier for you and would like for you to answer it:

  I have stated that there is no clear definition for evil, you did not refute that, and cannot refute that. You stated that god is the originator of the moral code, and anything he says goes, so to speak. If this is so would you kill if god told you to kill? Why is there accounts in the bible of humans questioning god's moral decisions? You did not answer those questions for me yet. You cannot answer those questions, because if you do then you debunk your own ideas on god having a "code" at all. It is self refuting to say that god has a moral code, but you would abanddon that code if god told you to. In essence there is no "code" just a man in charge who has whims that may change at any time.

  I am really interested in your comment on this.

  You stated in your last post:

  So if some musslum in your naberhood blew up a bomb for his belief in Allah and that happen to kill your kids, then by your standard and definition "YOU SAID IT" that act is really not evil.
  Wendy, can't you see the absurdity of your position? people who are going to look at this conversation are going to get the impression that you are some sort of monster.

  If a musslim followed what his heart told him and killed another because he felt god told him to, I would not call this evil. I would feel very sad for his misguided notions of there being a god that would even want him to do this. But I guess the problem lies in, he actually believes that there is a god that would want him to. What if your god told you to bomb a mosque? You really felt that he wanted you to do this, would that make you evil?

  To sit back and say that I would feel sorry for someone who just murdered my children would be absurd. Perhaps in time I would forgive them, but in the heat of the moment, there is no telling what I would do. Also there is no telling what you would do either. I can be honest and say that I may abanddon all of my beliefs and take it upon myself to end their life. You may also, so what is the difference between us?

  Your god tells you not to judge, yet again and again I see you making judgement calls on those who post here. Is it evil that you disobey your god? I don't think so, I think you really feel in your heart you are right, and you are not hurting anyone but yourself.
  

  Of course you can't define evil your an athiest and you have NO standard for what is evil or good. someone could argue for the necessity of shooting your kids because they are in the way. and you with your athiesm would have no ground to stand on to say he is wrong. Because according to you there is no standard for right or wrong.

  In my atheist view(as you call it) I do have a right to say what is right and wrong in my world. To kill another for no purpose and without medical reasonings is wrong. I stated that in my very first post. You continue to tell me that I cannot think this way, and I just don't see it. Why can't I have a moral code and not beleive in your god?

  If your fear is that an atheist will bring down all moral continuity in society, well fear not! I know many who are moral upstanding, non judgememntal people, who would never follow a voice in their head and attribute it to a god that created them. I feel sorry for christians who follow a god, because a book tells them to. I feel sorry for christians who base their entire life on "hope" that they will live another place. I feel sorry for christians who pray to their god and cry to their god and give up their lives when they feel their god has abanddoned them. I feel sorry for people who are so narrow minded that they miss out on many of the good people in this world, overlooking them because they feel their god would not approve.
  wendy
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Wendy Wrote:
  

  “And this has really boiled down to one topic. Evil, and my reluctance to tell you that evil is clearly defined,”

  
  Response: Of course you cannot respond to what is evil or give a clear definition. You abandon the only way you can know what evil really is as defined in the bible. Again as I said before atheism cannot give any bases for any definition of evil. Evil in your worldview can only be described in vague and arbratrary answers that are subject to change from time to time. Two things happen in this worldview of non-reason.
  1. Evil in your worldview and any definition of it, in its logical conclusion is meaningless.
  2. Your epistemological (look up the word epistemological in the Cambridge dictionary of philosophy published by Blackwell) method of understanding truth is destroyed. If what you see is true (new light) today but is false tomorrow, then your truth was never true to begin with. Does truth change? In submit that in the biblical Christian worldview as explained in the protestant reformation that it does not.

  Wendy asked:
  

  “You stated that god is the originator of the moral code, and anything he says goes, so to speak. If this is so would you kill if god told you to kill?”

  
  Answer: Thankfully, in the New Covenant administration of his kingdom God would never ask such a thing. I’m not much of a killer. When Christ died on the cross and was rose bodily from the grave the killing stopped. God’s wrath has been appeased for his people as promised in Isaiah.

  Wendy also asks:
  

  “Why is there accounts in the bible of humans questioning god's moral decisions? You did not answer those questions for me yet.”

  
  Question and Response: First of all which account please give me a chapter and a verse. This reason is that it will assure me that you have at least some idea of what you are talking about and not just making blind thoughtless accusations, thus assuring that we are having a meaningful dialog. I really want to tackle this question for you so please give me a chapter and verse of what you think man is questioning God about morality. Could you mean Joshua’s entrance into the land of Canaan? This would have promise and deliverance for God’s covenant people explanation. But first, what verse is your talking about. Remember you brought up the particular

  Wendy reveals:
  

  ” To sit back and say that I would feel sorry for someone who just murdered my children would be absurd. Perhaps in time I would forgive them, but in the heat of the moment, there is no telling what I would do. Also there is no telling what you would do either. I can be honest and say that I may abandon all of my beliefs and take it upon myself to end their life.”

  Response: Ah, this is where the rubber hits the road. Your atheistic dialectical tension has left you with a real dilemma that you can in no way solve unless you have the biblical God. You see without the knowledge of God you cannot say that the murder of your children by some Islamic terrorist is absolutely right or wrong. You have no standard of finality that you can make any moral judgments. And this has left you with a meaningless absurdity to explain or give an account for ethics, morals, law or justice. You’re not making a very compelling case for atheism.

  Wendy Writes:
  

  “If your fear is that an atheist will bring down all moral continuity in society, well fear not! I know many who are moral upstanding, non judgememntal people, who would never follow a voice in their head and attribute it to a god that created them. I feel sorry for christians who follow a god, because a book tells them to. I feel sorry for christians who base their entire life on "hope" that they will live another place. I feel sorry for christians who pray to their god and cry to their god and give up their lives when they feel their god has abanddoned them. I feel sorry for people who are so narrow minded that they miss out on many of the good people in this world, overlooking them because they feel their god would not approve.”

  Response: Look, I’m just challenging the philosophical assertions of atheism. I am not arguing with you that they are some atheist who are inconsistent with their philosophical system and borrow from the Christian worldview and are upstanding citizens who have a benevolent form of civil righteousness. It doesn’t save though only the Righteousness of Christ can. Finally, I can tell by your writing that you are afraid of inevitable judgment from God. To that I say flee to the mercies of Christ for his forgiveness is free to you if you trust Him and His righteousness and not your own.

  Peace,
  Jr