hi all else
I think it is fine especially when quoting hebrew scripture in the greek since god's name has already been established in the BIBLe in the hebrew scriptures so they are only adding what is already there.
Reniaa
The Case for Unitarianism
by UnDisfellowshipped 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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UnDisfellowshipped
Reniaa,
Can you explain why the New World Translation inserted the Name "Jehovah" into the following verses? (Can you at least show why the translators thought they were justified in inserting the Divine Name where it was NOT being quoted from the Old Testament?)
Mark 5:19-20 (NWT): However, he did not let him, but said to him: “Go home to your relatives, and report to them all the things Jehovah has done for you and the mercy he had on you.” And he went away and started to proclaim in the De·cap´o·lis all the things Jesus did for him, and all the people began to wonder.
Mark 13:20 (NWT): In fact, unless Jehovah had cut short the days, no flesh would be saved. But on account of the chosen ones whom he has chosen he has cut short the days.
Acts 1:24-25 (NWT): And they prayed and said: “You, O Jehovah, who know the hearts of all, designate which one of these two men you have chosen, to take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas deviated to go to his own place.”
Acts 2:47 (NWT): praising God and finding favor with all the people. At the same time Jehovah continued to join to them daily those being saved.
Acts 5:9 (NWT): So Peter said to her: “Why was it agreed upon between YOU [two] to make a test of the spirit of Jehovah? Look! The feet of those who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
Acts 7:59-60 (NWT): And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].
(That passage is my favorite to use when showing this to Jehovah's Witnesses, because if you look at it in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, Stephen was obviously praying to the LORD JESUS in both 7:59 and 7:60, but the NWT tries to change it in verse 60 to "Jehovah" with absolutely NO justification whatsoever!)
Acts 8:22-24 (NWT): Repent, therefore, of this badness of yours, and supplicate Jehovah that, if possible, the device of your heart may be forgiven you; for I see you are a poisonous gall and a bond of unrighteousness.” In answer Simon said: “YOU men, make supplication for me to Jehovah that none of the things YOU have said may come upon me.”
Acts 9:31 (NWT): Then, indeed, the congregation throughout the whole of Ju·de´a and Gal´i·lee and Sa·mar´i·a entered into a period of peace, being built up; and as it walked in the fear of Jehovah and in the comfort of the holy spirit it kept on multiplying.
Acts 10:33 (NWT): Therefore I at once sent to you, and you did well in coming here. And so at this time we are all present before God to hear all the things you have been commanded by Jehovah to say.”
Acts 11:20-21 (NWT): However, out of them there were some men of Cy´prus and Cy·re´ne that came to Antioch and began talking to the Greek-speaking people, declaring the good news of the Lord Jesus. Furthermore, the hand of Jehovah was with them, and a great number that became believers turned to the Lord.
Acts 12:17 (NWT): But he motioned to them with his hand to be silent and told them in detail how Jehovah brought him out of the prison, and he said: “Report these things to James and the brothers.” With that he went out and journeyed to another place.
Acts 12:24 (NWT): But the word of Jehovah went on growing and spreading.
Acts 13:2 (NWT): As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar´na·bas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 13:10-12 (NWT): and said: “O man full of every sort of fraud and every sort of villainy, you son of the Devil, you enemy of everything righteous, will you not quit distorting the right ways of Jehovah? Well, then, look! Jehovah’s hand is upon you, and you will be blind, not seeing the sunlight for a period of time.” Instantly a thick mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went around seeking men to lead him by the hand. Then the proconsul, upon seeing what had happened, became a believer, as he was astounded at the teaching of Jehovah.
Acts 14:3 (NWT): Therefore they spent considerable time speaking with boldness by the authority of Jehovah, who bore witness to the word of his undeserved kindness by granting signs and portents to occur through their hands.
Romans 12:11 (NWT): Do not loiter at YOUR business. Be aglow with the spirit. Slave for Jehovah.
Romans 14:5-9 (NWT): One [man] judges one day as above another; another [man] judges one day as all others; let each [man] be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it to Jehovah. Also, he who eats, eats to Jehovah, for he gives thanks to God; and he who does not eat does not eat to Jehovah, and yet gives thanks to God. None of us, in fact, lives with regard to himself only, and no one dies with regard to himself only; for both if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. Therefore both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah. For to this end Christ died and came to life again, that he might be Lord over both the dead and the living.
(That is another one of my favorites, because if you look at the context, especially verse 9, Paul is saying that Jesus died and came to life to become our LORD, and then that means the previous verses were referring to the Lord JESUS! The Greek has "Lord" in ALL of those verses, so why does the NWT insert "Jehovah" there? Again, there is absolutely no justification for this.)
1 Corinthians 4:4-5 (NWT): For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.
1 Corinthians 4:19 (NWT): But I will come to YOU shortly, if Jehovah wills, and I shall get to know, not the speech of those who are puffed up, but [their] power.
Ephesians 5:17-20 (NWT): On this account cease becoming unreasonable, but go on perceiving what the will of Jehovah is. Also, do not be getting drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but keep getting filled with spirit, speaking to yourselves with psalms and praises to God and spiritual songs, singing and accompanying yourselves with music in YOUR hearts to Jehovah, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ giving thanks always for all things to our God and Father
Ephesians 6:7-8 (NWT): Be slaves with good inclinations, as to Jehovah, and not to men, for YOU know that each one, whatever good he may do, will receive this back from Jehovah, whether he be slave or freeman.
Colossians 3:22-24 (NWT): YOU slaves, be obedient in everything to those who are [your] masters in a fleshly sense, not with acts of eye-service, as men pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, with fear of Jehovah. Whatever YOU are doing, work at it whole-souled as to Jehovah, and not to men, for YOU know that it is from Jehovah YOU will receive the due reward of the inheritance. SLAVE for the Master, Christ.
(That's another important passage, because look closely at 3:24 and you will see that Paul was definitely talking about Christ, but the NWT inserts "Jehovah" in the previous verses with absolutely NO justification again.)
Jude 1:5 (NWT): I desire to remind YOU, despite YOUR knowing all things once for all time, that Jehovah, although he saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those not showing faith.
(Look up Jude 1:5 in the newest Study Bibles, such as ESV, NLT, NET, and others, and you will see that the best manuscripts have "JESUS" in verse 5, and instead, the NWT inserts "Jehovah"!)
Revelation 1:8 (NWT): “I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”
Revelation 4:8 (NWT): And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings; round about and underneath they are full of eyes. And they have no rest day and night as they say: “Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is coming.”
Revelation 4:11 (NWT): “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”
Revelation 11:17 (NWT): saying: “We thank you, Jehovah God, the Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun ruling as king.
Revelation 16:7 (NWT): And I heard the altar say: “Yes, Jehovah God, the Almighty, true and righteous are your judicial decisions.”
Revelation 18:8 (NWT): That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.
Revelation 22:6-7 (NWT): And he said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah the God of the inspired expressions of the prophets sent his angel forth to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And, look! I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll.”
Reniaa, can you please explain why the New World Translation has the word "Jehovah" in all of those verses, where there is absolutely no justification for it in the Koine Greek manuscripts? (Please examine your own copy of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation to verify this)
By adding the word "Jehovah" into the Greek Scriptures where it does not belong, the translators of the New World Translation have put themselves under the CURSE made by Jesus at the end of the book of Revelation:
Revelation 22:18-19 (NWT): “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.Most of those verses above were referring to the Lord Jesus Christ (if you examine the context you will see this), but the Watchtower Society changes it to "Jehovah" with NO justification at all. That is dishonest and it is adding to the Word of God, a very serious offense in God's eyes.
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White Dove
Children must serve their two masters: their mother and father. If they don't, they will get the hell beaten out of them. There are other two masters, as well: Gawd and country.
I'm a polytheist and pantheist: many gods and everyone is divine.
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allelsefails
Reniaa - Did you read my question? Undisfellowshipped stated it more thoroughly. I don't mind "Jehovah" when the verse is clearly quoting a Hebrew verse with YHWH in it. What about all the others? The list above is a great starting place.
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UnDisfellowshipped
AllElseFails,
I apologize -- I am very sorry it's taken me this long to respond to your last post...... Thank you for your patience. (I met a Christian woman that I'm falling in love with during the last month, and that has taken away a little bit more of my free time .... She's just not sure yet whether she is in love with me....don't want to rush things you know....) Okay, back to the topic at hand:
You said:
"I agree to the point that John 16:14 AND 15 point strongly to the duality of Father and Son, however it still does not say "given everything he received". John 16:14-15 (NASB): "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; [all things the father have belong to Jesus] therefore I said that He takes of Mine [not everything, not the name, not specified at all] and will disclose it to you." It does NOT say HE (spirit) takes everything that is mine, it says He takes of (or from) what is mine."
You are correct that the NASB (usually the most literal translation) at John 16:14-15 does not specifically say that The Holy Spirit receives all things from The Son that The Son received from The Father, it simply says that The Spirit receives things from among the things that The Son received from The Father.
I was reading from the ESV and the NET Bible, which read as the following:
John 16:14-15 (NET Bible) He will glorify me, because he will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; that is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what is mine and will tell it to you.
John 16:14-15 (ESV): He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
I will do more research later to find out which rendering is more correct.
If the NASB is correct, then you're right that this passage cannot be used to show that The Holy Spirit has received the Name or authority of The Father and The Son. (But Matthew 28 does say that The Father, Son, and Spirit all have a singular Name or authority).
I will post more soon....
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allelsefails
Congrats on the relationship! Hopefully it works out good. Thanks for the response and the info. It is a shame the languages of the bible can not be perfectly understood in today's English. I think that is why it is important not to base belief on one scripture, but the message as a whole. I look forward to hearing your research and will some of my own. Obviously this verse was not stressed by my JW training. LOL!
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UnDisfellowshipped
AllElseFails,
Sorry it took so long to reply. My job has been exhausting me the last couple months, along with my new relationship (not complaining about that though lol).
I will begin to post on here again starting this weekend, and I look forward to reviving our discussion we were having about the Deity of Christ and the The Holy Spirit.
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UnDisfellowshipped
My Case for the Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit:
Below are the main reasons why I believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person and why I believe He is fully God in Nature.
The Holy Spirit is a Person, NOT an impersonal active force like electricity:
John 14:16-18 (NASB): "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit was another Helper (or Advocate) who was coming after Him. The Greek word for "another" in John 14:16-18 means "another of the same." So Jesus was saying that the Spirit would be another Helper just like Himself, in other words, the Spirit would be (1) a Person and (2) fully God in Nature.
And notice, the Spirit cannot be Jesus because the Spirit is "another" Person besides Jesus, and the Spirit cannot be The Father because The Father is sending the Spirit. Therefore, the only conclusion I arrive at from these verses is that the Holy Spirit is a THIRD Person who is fully God in Nature.
John 14:26 (NASB): "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
The Spirit teaches people.
John 15:26 (NASB): "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, [that is] the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
The Spirit is a different Person than The Father, however, the Spirit does "proceed" from The Father. Notice also that the Spirit testifies about Jesus, who is a different Person. Both Jesus and The Father send the Spirit.
John 16:7-15 (NASB):"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; [...] when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose [it] to you. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose [it] to you.
Jesus repeatedly referred to the Spirit as "He" and "Him," and said that He would do things that only a person can do, such as teach, speak, have an initiative, hear things, and take things from Jesus.
Romans 8:26-27 (NASB): In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for [us] with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to [the will of] God.
Here, the Spirit is described as having a mind, and praying to God for us, and interceding and groaning for us to God the Father. The Spirit is obviously a Person. An impersonal active force cannot have a mind and pray and intercede for us.
Acts 8:29 (NASB): Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
Here, the Spirit is speaking to Philip, giving him a command. How can an impersonal force speak and give a command?
Acts 10:19-20 (NASB): While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are looking for you. "But get up, go downstairs and accompany them without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself."
Now the Spirit speaks to Peter and tells him that He Himself has sent these men to find Peter. This Spirit does not sound at all like an impersonal active force like electricity.
Acts 13:2 (NASB): While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
The Spirit chooses and calls the people that He desires to serve Him in special ways. The Spirit set apart for Himself Paul and Barnabas for special ministry work. How could the Spirit do this if He is not a person?
Acts 15:28 (NASB): "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials
Things can seem good or bad to the Spirit. The Spirit cannot be an impersonal force because the Spirit has feelings and desires and thoughts.
1 Corinthians 12:4-11 (NASB): Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all [persons.] But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another [various] kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
Here the Spirit and the Lord [Jesus] and God the Father are declared to be working together in unity but are different Persons. It also says clearly that the Spirit has His own will and He distributes His gifts to whomever He chooses according to His own will. Definitely not an impersonal active force.
Ephesians 4:30 (NASB): Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
The Holy Spirit can be grieved (or feel hurt, feel pain). This is something only a person can do.
In the Scriptures, The Holy Spirit is always placed on an equal level with God the Father and Jesus Christ, but is always shown to be a different Person:
Matthew 28:19 (NASB): "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Notice that the "Name" of all Three is singular. They all have One Name (whether that "Name" is an actual name or is referring to their authority or reputation is debatable. It is possibly referring to both.)
And if the Spirit is simply God's active force, why would Jesus elevate it to the same level as His Father and Himself, and also, why would we be baptized in the Name of an impersonal force like electricity?
Matthew 12:31 (NASB): "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Luke 12:10 (NASB): "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
Jesus shows that blasphemy against Him can be forgiven, but not blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. How can you blaspheme the Spirit unless the Spirit is a Person? And why is blaspheming Him more serious than blaspheming Jesus?
Acts 5:3-4 (NASB): But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back [some] of the price of the land? [...] You have not lied to men but to God."
How can you lie to an impersonal force like electricity? Also, notice how Peter says "You have lied to the Holy Spirit... you have lied to God." Peter equates the Holy Spirit with God.
Romans 15:30 (NASB): Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me,
Here Paul mentions the Three Persons together on an equal level, and also shows that The Holy Spirit has love, which is something only a person can have.
2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB): Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, [there] is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
This is a very clear, explicit statement that the Holy Spirit is the Lord. Therefore, the Spirit is NOT an impersonal active force like electricity. Instead, Paul said that The Spirit is THE LORD! (Or, in the New World Translation, it says the Spirit is JEHOVAH)
2 Corinthians 13:14 (NASB): The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Once again, Paul places the Three Persons on an equal level, and this time he says that the Spirit has fellowship with us Christians. An impersonal force cannot have fellowship with human beings, can it?
Ephesians 4:4-6 (NASB): [There is] one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
Here Paul says that there is One Spirit, One Lord [Jesus], and One God [The Father]. Thus there are Three different Persons who are united as we worship and serve Them.
1 Peter 1:2 (NASB): according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
And finally, Peter also shows here that The Three Persons are different, but work together in unity as we serve and worship Them.
Let me ask a couple final questions here:
Why do you believe that God the Father is a Person instead of an impersonal force? What would happen if you applied the same exact standards and tests to the Holy Spirit to see if the Spirit is a Person?
Why do you believe that Satan the Devil is a person instead of an impersonal force? What would happen if you applied the same exact standards and tests to the Holy Spirit to see if the Spirit is a Person?