The Case for Unitarianism

by UnDisfellowshipped 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

UnDisfellowshipped

The Case for Unitarianism:
Unitarianism -- The Belief that God is only One Person (usually The Father) and that Jesus is one of God's creations (usually an exalted angel and/or just a great human being). Jehovah's Witnesses and other "Christian" religions that teach that Jesus is not God subscribe to some form of Unitarianism.
I have never found a well-reasoned, well-argued, logical presentation of the doctrine of Unitarianism (the belief that God is only One Person, The Father, not Three Persons).
I am a Trinitarian Christian, but in this thread, I will play the so-called "devil's advocate" and will attempt to present the best possible, logical argument in favor of Unitarianism from the Scriptures, and then proceed to refute the teachings of Unitarianism.
It's not my aim to help give Jehovah's Witnesses "more ammunition" to argue against the Trinity. My belief is that if I can present the best, most well-reasoned, logical case in favor of Unitarianism and then go on to show that Unitarianism (at its finest) is false according to the Bible, then we will have made a much stronger case against Unitarianism than if we had simply argued against the flawed, illogical arguments that I have seen used by Jehovah's Witnesses and other non-Trinitarians.
And, on the flip side, sincere Unitarians can use this as a starting point to perhaps develop better, more logical, more Scripturally-based arguments in support of their beliefs.
In this way (in the words of Obama) I intend to at least "elevate the debate" to a higher level, and get rid of the "strawmen" and "caricatures." And maybe this will cause all sides to think deeper about why they believe what they believe about Jesus.
Plus, I believe this is following the "Golden Rule." If I was making a flawed argument in favor of the Trinity, I would appreciate very much if a Unitarian or Jehovah's Witness actually did some research and argued against the best possible presentation of the Trinity doctrine instead of my flawed, weak argument. So I am doing for them what I would want done to me.
Enough with all of these explanations; so below is, in my opinion, the best possible "Case for Unitarianism," and following that, I will attempt to show why Unitarianism is wrong:
* The Bible teaches that there is only One True God, only One Person who is Almighty God, and this One Person is The Father. His Name is Jehovah (Yahweh). (See John 17:3; John 5:37, 5:44; John 8:54; Isaiah 63:15-16; Malachi 1:6; 1st Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 4:6)
* But, even though there is only One Almighty God, there are others who can be called "gods" or even "mighty gods" in a lesser sense. These include representatives and spokesmen for the Almighty, such as holy angels, Moses, Israelite Judges, and Davidic Kings. These are called "gods" because they speak for the One True God in His Name as His representatives. (See Exodus 4:15-16; 7:1; Psalm 82; John 10:35-36; Psalm 45:6; Psalm 8:5; Psalm 86:8) There are also false gods, such as mythical gods, idols, Pagan human kings, rulers, Satan, and the demons. These false gods are called "gods" because people worship them and because they exercise power over others. (See 2nd Corinthians 4:4; Exodus 12:12; Deuteronomy 4:28; 32:17; Ezekiel 28:2; Isaiah 14:14)
* The foremost "Mighty God," underneath the Almighty God, is the Logos [Word, Wisdom]. The Logos was the very first and greatest creation of Almighty God. He is God's Firstborn Son, "produced" by God as "the beginning of the creation of God." (See Proverbs 8:22; Revelation 3:14; Colossians 1:15) The Logos only exists because God gives life to Him (John 6:57).
* The Logos is called "God" or "Mighty God" because He is the Chief Spokesman or Representative of the Almighty, and speaks in His Name with His authority and power. (John 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49)
* God created the Logos with the same Nature (or "Essence") that God has, and the Logos is the "exact image of God's Being," but the Logos is still a lesser and inferior being compared to the Almighty. (Hebrews 1:2-3) That is why Jehovah is called "The Father" and the Logos is called "The Son."
* The Logos is not All-Knowing or All-Powerful on His own, He only has the power and knowledge that the Almighty gives to Him. The Father is greater than The Son. (See John 14:28)
* God created all other things through the Logos. God was the Planner, Designer, Architect, and Creator, while the Logos was merely the Agent or Instrument through which all things were created. (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-18; Hebrews 1:2)
* The Logos is in a separate class from the angels. He is higher and greater than they are. He has a different Nature than they do. (Hebrews Chapter 1)
* The Logos became a Human Being, known as Jesus Christ. (John 1:14)
* The Almighty God, The Father, is the only Person who should be worshiped in the fullest sense of religious devotion. (Matthew 4:10; Deuteronomy 6:13-14; 10:20; Exodus 20:5; 34:14) If you worship any creature at all in this religious sense, no matter how great the creature is, it is idolatry. (Romans 1:25)
* However, it is acceptable in God's eyes to bow down in respect and honor to a superior or to honor and acknowledge God's representative or spokesman. (See Revelation 3:9) In harmony with this, God commands all people and angels to bow down to His Son, the Logos, Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 1:6; Philippians 2:9-11; Revelation Chapter 5) But this is not the same kind of religious worship given to the Almighty God. This is a lower, or lesser, level of worship or honor, therefore it is not idolatry.
______________________________________________________________
What is wrong with that Unitarian Argument above?
1:) The Bible says that there is only One True God by Nature, and all other so-called gods are NOT gods by nature. 1st Corinthians 8:6. John 1:1, Colossians 2:9, and Philippians 2:6 clearly show that Jesus is God by Nature.
2:) John 1:1-3; 1st John 1:1-2; Colossians 1:16-18, Hebrews 1:3, and John 8:58 clearly teach that Jesus has always existed, and was NOT created by God.
3:) Isaiah 44:24 says that Jehovah ALONE, BY HIMSELF created Heaven and Earth, whereas Hebrews 1:10 says that Jesus created Heaven and Earth with His own hands. Therefore Jesus is Jehovah the Creator.
4:) The New Testament teaches that there is only One God for Christians. The Apostle Thomas said that his God was Jesus! (In Greek, Thomas actually said to Jesus, "The God of me!")
5:) In Revelation, the angel who was representing God and speaking for Him in His Name REFUSED to be worshiped, whereas Jesus ALWAYS ACCEPTED worship. The only explanation for this is that Jesus is God by Nature, not a creature.
6:) In Revelation, it says Jesus is the One who searches the hearts and minds, which, according to the Old Testament, is something only Jehovah can do.
7:) John 5:23 and Revelation Chapter 5 shows that Jesus must be honored equally with His Father.
8:) In John 1:1, it says Jesus was "God" BEFORE any creature was ever created. If He was only "a god" in the sense of being a "Spokesman" for God, then why would He have been called "God" BEFORE anyone existed that He could speak to for God?
9:) Finally, if, as Colossians 2:9, John 1:1, and Philippians 2:6 say, Jesus shares the exact same Nature that God has, then how could He be a creature? God's Nature is eternal, all-powerful, and all-knowing, then how could Jesus not be eternal, all-powerful, and all-knowing?
What are your thoughts on this?
I would love to hear from any current Jehovah's Witnesses who want to have a serious debate, and from any other Unitarians, or any others who do not believe Jesus is God.
I'd also like to see any comments from my fellow Trinitarian brethren!
Thank you!
allelsefails

I need to do a little research to answer intelligently. Here is my brief answer though. I have always believed that God has revealed himself in every way we need to know him. To use the words "father and son" to describe the relationship only makes sense if the father gave life to the son. Otherwise the illustration of their relationship is meaningless. In the society of people Jesus preached to they would clearly understand that a son would be in a lower position than his father. Father is greater than Son no matter how you look at it. As John 1:1 says Jesus was with God, Jesus was of a divine substance. [In my research I have found that the most accurate rendering of the verse. I disgree with WTS "a god" it diminishes Jesus, but using this scripture to prove the trinity is just as flawed. Jesus is the Son therefore he has inherited the same type of power and abilities from his father, but that doesn't make them both the same God.] As 1 Cor 8:6 describes our relationship to the father and son - "yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live." Note the different roles they play in creation. We exist "FROM" our only God the father but "THROUGH" the lord Jesus. God the Father is the source and the Lord Jesus is the channel used to accomplish the work of creation. As I said I will do more research on the above points you mentioned and look up the scriptures and post when I have a more thought out answer. I also have a "bible canon" issue that I'm still working on, If I feel it has merit I will post as well thanks for your insite and thoughts here. Very good logic.
Midget-Sasquatch

As I understand it, the Trinity is a fairly thought out model harmonizing the different ideas on the human/divine nature of the Jesus/Christ figure and monotheism.
If the Nazoreans or Ebionites were truer to the teachings of the earliest "christian" movement, then Jesus wasn't God. But the waters were likely muddied by Saul/Paul throwing his ideas into the mix (which show a strong similarity to some gnostic ones). But the gnostic movement wasn't homogenous and there were different ideas on how many emanated divine beings there were in the pleroma or Godhead. You could think of Jesus as an emanation of God, but then it looks like gnostic christians also believed that in a sense they were too. That their true natures were divine and that they'd return to the pleroma. The broad camps even wrote rebuttals against each others views. I don't think the Trinity was by any means something that was explicitly taught at the earliest stages if the movement. Just like today you can find people eager to deify some gurus, you had believers who deified Jesus.
cameo-d

Jesus is no relation to the old testament god. There are scriptures that uphold this.
You cannot serve two masters; trinitarians try to serve three.
From a commentary on gospel of judas:
On one occasion, when he found his disciples in "pious observance" and giving thanks to their god, he laughed and they asked why. In his answer, it is made abundantly clear that their god is not his god - he is not the son of their god, and they did not know his identity. In fact, he does not speak highly of their god. (This sentiment can be also found in the New Testament in John 8, where Jesus refers to their god as a liar, a murderer, and the devil.)
UnDisfellowshipped

AllElseFails, thank you for your comments!
You said:
"I have always believed that God has revealed himself in every way we need to know him."
I agree completely.
You said:
"To use the words "father and son" to describe the relationship only makes sense if the father gave life to the son. Otherwise the illustration of their relationship is meaningless."
Let me ask a question, just to spark some more discussion on this: How literal should we take that "Father and Son" description? Should we take it so literal that we have to assume that The Father has a Heavenly Wife who is the Mother that gave birth to the Logos? After all, you can't have a human son without a mother, right?
How do we know that the "Father and Son" description is referring to giving life instead of referring to their position, rank, or authority?
But, even if it is referring to "giving life" (as John 6:57 may be teaching), it is important to take note that the early church fathers believed that The Logos was "begotten" from The Father in the sense that He is constantly (and eternally) coming forth or shining out of His Being (just as Hebrews 1:3 teaches). As long as the sun is a burning star, it always gives off rays of light, and in the same way, as long as The Father is alive, He always gives off rays of glory, and these rays of glory are The Logos. (See Hebrews 1:3 in the Greek, or a Greek dictionary)
You said:
"In the society of people Jesus preached to they would clearly understand that a son would be in a lower position than his father. Father is greater than Son no matter how you look at it."
I agree with you on this point. The Father does have a greater position than The Son. That is clearly taught in the Bible.
But, there is an additional meaning that the Jewish society attached to the phrase "The Son of God." The term "Son of Man" meant that you were truly human by nature, that you were man. In the same way, the term "Son of God" (as Jesus used it) meant that He was truly God by Nature, that He was God.
That is why the Jews accused Him of blasphemy when He said He was the Unique Son of God (See John 5:17-18; John 19:7; Luke 22:70-71).
You said:
"As John 1:1 says Jesus was with God, Jesus was of a divine substance. [In my research I have found that the most accurate rendering of the verse. I disgree with WTS "a god" it diminishes Jesus, but using this scripture to prove the trinity is just as flawed."
I do agree with you that the best way to translate John 1:1 is to say that The Logos has the same Nature as God or has Divine Nature/Deity. You are right that "a god" diminishes Jesus, and probably takes Christians into polytheism if taken to its logical conclusion.
John 1:1 alone does not prove the Trinity, but it does show that Jesus has the Nature of God (as do Colossians 2:9 and Philippians 2:6)
You said:
"Jesus is the Son therefore he has inherited the same type of power and abilities from his father, but that doesn't make them both the same God.] As 1 Cor 8:6 describes our relationship to the father and son - "yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live." Note the different roles they play in creation. We exist "FROM" our only God the father but "THROUGH" the lord Jesus. God the Father is the source and the Lord Jesus is the channel used to accomplish the work of creation."
My understanding of 1 Cor. 8:6 is that Paul is putting both The Father and Jesus in a totally separate class from all other "so-called gods." Wouldn't this mean that Jesus would have to be a True God by Nature? If so, what about Isaiah chapters 40-50 which teach that Jehovah is the Only True God by Nature who has ever, or will ever, exist?
You are right that The Father is the ultimate Source, and everything comes FROM The Father THROUGH The Son. I agree totally.
On that note, John 1:3 says that not even one single thing has ever been made without being made through Jesus. If that's true, wouldn't that mean Jesus Himself was NOT made by God? Or was Jesus made through Jesus?
You said:
"As I said I will do more research on the above points you mentioned and look up the scriptures and post when I have a more thought out answer. I also have a "bible canon" issue that I'm still working on, If I feel it has merit I will post as well thanks for your insite and thoughts here. Very good logic."
Thank you! I really do appreciate your comments, and I look forward to discussing this a lot more with you!
allelsefails

I don't have time tonight to put togather a thoughtful answer, but could you describe exactly what the "trinity" you believe in is? Some views are slightly different than others and I am always curious to hear it described. Can you also describe the phrase "God by nature"? I think I understand, but want to make sure. Obviously the nature of God is beyond a human's full comprehension, but the journey to understanding is valuable for itself. Thanks again for your thought provoking post.
UnDisfellowshipped

Hi AllElseFails, thanks for your post!
You said:
"could you describe exactly what the "trinity" you believe in is? Some views are slightly different than others and I am always curious to hear it described."
Yes, gladly:
* There is only One True God by Nature.
* There are Three Distinct Persons who share equally the Nature of God.
* There are NOT three different GODS (that is the false doctrine of Tritheism or Polytheism).
* There is NOT one PERSON who is revealed three different ways (that is the false doctrine of Modalism).
* However, each Person of the Trinity does have His own "role" or "function." The Son willingly obeys the Father. The Spirit willingly obeys the Father and the Son. (This is known as "Functional Subordinationism")
* Each of the Three Persons is called "Jehovah" (or "Yahweh") and "God" in the Bible.
* Jesus IS Jehovah, but He is NOT The Father or The Spirit.
* The Son is the One who died on the Cross, NOT The Father or The Spirit.
* The Father is the One who sent The Son into the world. (Jesus did NOT send Himself)
* The Son was praying to The Father. (Jesus was NOT praying to Himself)
* While Jesus was on earth (and even after He returned to heaven), The Father had a greater position or rank of authority within the Godhead.
* The Father, Son, and Spirit are EQUAL in Nature, Essence, Attributes, Qualities, Power, Knowledge, etc.
* The Father, Son, and Spirit are Co-Eternal. One did not exist before the other. They have always existed together.
* The Father, Son, and Spirit deserve EQUAL worship and praise and prayer from Christians.
* The Son took on flesh, and became 100% Human in addition to being 100% God. That is why He had certain human limitations while He was on earth.
You said:
"Can you also describe the phrase "God by nature"? I think I understand, but want to make sure. Obviously the nature of God is beyond a human's full comprehension, but the journey to understanding is valuable for itself. Thanks again for your thought provoking post."
You are right when you say that we, as limited, finite humans, cannot fully comprehend or fathom all the mysteries of the Nature of God, since He is Spirit and we are flesh (and spirit as well).
When I say that Jesus has the "same Nature" as The Father, I mean that Jesus exists with the very same essence (or substance) that The Father exists with. In other words, everything that The Father has that makes Him be God, Jesus has the exact same things. There is nothing that The Father has in His Nature that The Son does not also have equally.
An analogy (to a certain degree of similarity), would be a human husband and wife are both equally human by nature, even though one has the position of "headship" according to the Bible. A wife is not a lesser being than her husband, they are both equally human. Jesus is not a lesser being than The Father, they are both equally God by Nature.
You could call "Nature" "species" or "kind" or "being."
At Colossians 2:9, perhaps the strongest and boldest declaration of the Deity of Christ anywhere, some Bibles translate it as "Godship," "Godhood," "Godhead," "Nature of God," "Deity," etc.
Look how Thayer's Greek Dictionary defines the Greek word "Theotes" (Deity) [Strong's # G2320] found in Colossians 2:9:
"the state of being God."
And remember, Thayer did not believe in the Trinity, either.
Humans beget humans. Apes beget apes. Mice beget mice. And God begets God. If Jesus is begotten of God, then He is God as well.
The Bible does speak some about the "natures" of various things. For example, see the following verses:
Galatians 4:8 (ESV): Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to thosethat by nature are not gods.
1 Corinthians 15:38-39 (ESV): But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
Romans 1:20, 25 (ESV): For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. [...] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
According to what I have read about John 1:1, the best way to translate it is that "The Logos has the same Nature as God."
So, as we can see from those verses, the Apostle Paul taught that there was only One God by Nature, the Creator, and that NO creature could be God by Nature. All other gods are just so-called "gods." (See Romans 1:20, 25, Galatians 4:8, and 1 Corinthians 8:6) But he also declared that Jesus has all of the fullness of the Nature of God dwelling in Him bodily. (See Colossians 2:9) And John declared that the Logos has the same Nature as God. Hebrews 1:3 says that Jesus is the EXACT Copy of The Father's Nature.
But again, we cannot fully understand the Nature of God, as Paul taught:
Acts 17:29 (ESV): Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
Another important Scripture to think about is Psalm 89:6, which says (ESV):
"For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the heavenly beings is like the LORD,"
So, that Psalm is teaching us that none of the other heavenly beings can even be compared with the Nature of Yahweh. But, when we come to the New Testament (Hebrews 1:3 for example), Jesus is described as being the EXACT Copy of God's Nature.
Midget-Sasquatch

I see alot of verses being quoted arguing for Jesus being divine and the perfect reflection of God but I haven't been as convinced about the "Holy Spirit" being the 3rd person of the Trinity.
What verse(s) tells us that the Holy Spirit is the perfect image or reflection of God, or that it has the entire fullness of the pleroma in it?
What verse(s) tells us that it is God (by its nature say) and not simply some sort of emanation bestowed to empower/aid believers?
What verse(s) explicity limits the Godhead to just 3 persons? Why are not all believers also a part of this as the Gospel of John speaks of beleivers, Jesus and followers being one?
allelsefails

You've given me a lot to think about. I'll do little pieces of responses as I have something useful to add here. When responding to my question of "God by Nature" you used the illustration of husband and wife. They are both clearly human by nature neither "above" the other in abities only in position/resposibility. However one is the husband and one is the wife they are not the same (as my wife and I will attest to). I do believe the "nature of God" is in the Son. Again that is the only way to understand the relationship - my son is by nature my genetic code - he is me, but uniquely different. He has a different position and personality than me, but he is not "me"....... I the "father" am God. He, my son,(even if he is omnipotent) is the Lord Jesus not the God Jesus (1 COR 8:6) He is subserviant to me. He does my will not his own. He does not know all that I know. (Mark 13:32 - International Standard Version - "No one knows when that day or hour will come-not the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father.)Yes my son has the potential of me (Father = God), But not the position of me (Father = God). I would be curious too on what basis the holy spirit is scripturally ascribed to the Godhead. A duality more scriptural perhaps? Thanks again. Allelsefails
UnDisfellowshipped

Hey there, Midget-Sasquatch (I love that Screen Name!)
The belief that The Holy Spirit is One of the Persons of God (shares the same Nature as The Father and The Son) comes from several passages, some of the most important ones are below:
John 14:16-17 (ESV): And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
That passage clearly teaches Three Persons. Jesus (One Person) said He was going to ask His Father (a 2nd Person) to send "another Helper," The Holy Spirit (a 3rd Person).
From my studies, the Greek in that passage says that The Holy Spirit is "another" Helper LIKE Jesus. There were two Greek words for "another." One of them meant "another of a different kind," and one meant "another of the same kind." The one used in this passage is "another of the same kind."
John 16:13-14 (ESV): When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
So, once again, Jesus refers to a Third Divine Person who is on the same level as The Father and Son.
Matthew 28:19 (ESV): Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Jesus said that every Christian should be baptized in the NAME (singular word, not plural) of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. All Three share One Name (or One Authority).
2 Corinthians 13:14 (ESV): The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Paul links The Three together in a special way.
Romans 8:14-17 (ESV): For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
All Three Persons are again linked, and The Holy Spirit bears witness.
1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 11 (ESV): Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. ... All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
The Three Persons are mentioned together as being on the same level, and The Holy Spirit is described as having His own will.
Acts 13:2 (ESV): While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
That verse clearly shows the Deity of The Holy Spirit.
Acts 5:3-4 (ESV): But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
That passage equates The Holy Spirit with God.
There are many other passages, and I will post more soon.

The Case for Unitarianism

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