Thanks for the great back and forth so far. I appreciate your taking the time you have to look close at these points.
The Case for Unitarianism
by UnDisfellowshipped 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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reniaa
The thing is to believe in one God all we need do is quote scripture. The bible is unrelentantly unitarian for great Almighty God Jehovah.
Mark 12:28-34 (New International Version)
28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[b]
31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c]There is no commandment greater than these." 32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
I quote Jesus clearly stating the first commandment saying there is only one YHWH is the most important one and we must love him with our whole hearts.
Trinity is read into the scripture it isn't there as a doctrine, we have 3 major religions drawn from God's word the bible and all in their origin believed in One God, then later in christendom Jesus was made into God despite his own words and holy spirit quite a bit later tagged on.
The question always is would Jesus approve of us putting him in position of God?
If we diminish him by saying he is God's only begotten son firstborn of creation rather than almighty God Jehovah himself then so be it, I will take the judgement since this is what the bible taught me.
I was bought up with the NWT I grew up knowing God had a personal name and it was Jehovah and his son was Jesus. he wasn't some nebulous distant father figure but my real God who I could pray too by name. I often wonder if trinity would have ever happenned if more bibles had kept gods name as Jehovah or yahweh even, Almighty God having a name gives him depth and personality that trinity making God an it with 3 persons in it, that for me removes from them the chance to know god fully as a complete person in himself and his son treated him that way never asking any more than to do his Father and God's will.
Matthew 26:42 (New International Version)
42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
Reniaa
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PSacramento
RE: the issue of Jehovah or Yahweh or Jesus or Yashua,
While Yahweh can be viewed as an attempt to bring the tetragrammaton to "full name" based on other names that have the same letters, Jehovah is a combination of the tetragrammaton and the word Adonai, so while both MAY be incorrect, Yahweh is an attempt at translation of the name while Jehovah is a trnalsation of TWO names combine in one.
Jesus is a translation of His name from Greek so unless you are speaking Hebrew or Aramaic, Jesus is an acceptable translation.
RE: the Trinity.
It is, in my humble view, at best an interpretation of the relationship between God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, it is NOT scriptural and as such should NOT be a basis for salvation.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Reniaa, just a quick reply:
You said:
"then later in christendom Jesus was made into God despite his own words and holy spirit quite a bit later tagged on."
My Reply:
What do you consider "later"?
The Apostle Thomas believed Jesus was his God in 33 CE! Jesus said that all His followers should believe the same thing!
John 20:28-29 (New World Translation): In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe.”
Jesus pronouned a blessing ("Happy") on all those who believe that Jesus is their Lord and God just as Thomas did (except without seeing Him).
Reniaa, do you believe that Jesus is your God, as Thomas did?
You said:
"The question always is would Jesus approve of us putting him in position of God?"
My Reply:
He blessed Thomas for that. Not only that, Jesus says that all should honor Him just as they honor The Father:
John 5:22-23 (New World Translation): For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
Reniaa, do you honor The Son just as you honor The Father? If so, how do you honor The Son in that way?
Do Jehovah's Witnesses honor The Son just as they honor The Father? How exactly do JW's obey John 5:23?
Also, in Revelation Chapter 5, The Lamb is given equal worship and honor with The Father. There is absolutely nothing given to The Father that is not also given to The Son.
I highly recommend that you read Chapter 15 of your "Revelation Grand Climax" book. It's all about how we should sing praises to Jesus and bow down to Him!
You said:
"If we diminish him by saying he is God's only begotten son firstborn of creation rather than almighty God Jehovah himself then so be it, I will take the judgement since this is what the bible taught me."
My Reply:
That is what I am hoping to keep you from. It will be terrifying experience to stand before Almighty God Jehovah and The Lamb, and to hear the Lamb say "Get away from me, I never knew you."
John 8:24 (New World Translation): Therefore I said to YOU, YOU will die in YOUR sins. For if YOU do not believe that I am [he], YOU will die in YOUR sins.”
You said:
"I was bought up with the NWT I grew up knowing God had a personal name and it was Jehovah and his son was Jesus. he wasn't some nebulous distant father figure but my real God who I could pray too by name. I often wonder if trinity would have ever happenned if more bibles had kept gods name as Jehovah or yahweh even, Almighty God having a name gives him depth and personality that trinity making God an it with 3 persons in it, that for me removes from them the chance to know god fully as a complete person in himself and his son treated him that way never asking any more than to do his Father and God's will."
My Reply:
If you research it, you will quickly find out that it is, at best, dishonest to insert the Divine Name into the New Testament (Greek Scriptures) where it does not appear in Greek, because there has never been a manuscript of the Greek New Testament found with the Divine Name in it. (aside from "Hallelujah" in Revelation)
The only small justification anyone could find would be to insert it in places where they are quoting from the Old Testament, but even then, we should render it "LORD" because the inspired writers of the New Testament chose to use the Greek word "Kyrios," and this word means "Lord."
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allelsefails
What is dishonest to me is that most witnesses think the NWT puts Jehovah in ONLY where it quotes from the OT. This is totally untrue. It inserts it whereever a literal translation would damage their teachings. I'll gladly provide a list (even though it is in your reference bible) if you need it.
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reniaa
Hi undisfellowship
You use and twist the scriptures over thomas,the facts are he said something immediately in wonder while Jesus was yet on earth before he accended too heaven and gained his full glory on God's right hand. Your own teaching makes him still a man at that point and not God yet you say thomas says he is God at that point? Although to use this as proof of a doctrine found nowhere in the bible acccept in false sccriptures long found out and removed 1 john 5:7 additions been one place, is reaching by anyone standard.
Then you quote Jesus words in reply out of context everyone knows Thomas doubted Jesus's resurrection and Jesus was commenting on thomas believing his own eyes on seeing Jesus that now he believed, and those who do not see yet believe are us and that we should to believe in God's resurrecction of Jesus that saves us. you are denying our acknowledgement of Jesus saving us by his sacrifice my making these words about him being God and not recognising him being raised for our sins!
Acts 10:39-43 (New International Version)
39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
They were witnesses to his resurrection and that is what we preach and are to be saved by this fulfillment because God appoints him to judge both living and the Dead.
You worry for me bringing judgement on myself? I worry for christendom that cannot free itself from the false teachings of men.
Jesus's own words are this
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.We acknowledge and do the will of Jehovah, yet it would take Jehovah's own words acknowledging Jesus and the holy spirit and himself as ONE for me to believe the delusion christendom follows but where is the scripture that says this? nowhere! It's only in the rhetoric of men.
I honour Jesus as my saviour, God's only begotten son, king and the annointed priest on behalf of us all but I do not give him what rightedfully belongs only to his father, Almighty God Jehovah.
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.There is truth but it is only found in God's word the bible
Reniaa
Hi Psacramento
The hebrews had no vowels in their written language, YHWH is properly God's full name the addition of vowels are only involved in making it pronounciable and add nothing to YHWH being his actual NAME given to moses in Hebrew. So yes people can use Jehovah or Yahweh like they can use Jesus or Yeshua or even ieous for Jesus but YHWH is God's name as long as we use the tetragramation God's written and acknowledged nameto moses that is what is important, Jehovah is just the English version of this.
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allelsefails
Reniaa - what do you think about using Jehovah in the Greek scriptures where it is not a quote from the Hebrew? Did you know that this is done many times - especially in Paul's writings? I believe the evidence shows that they take liberty with the translation that no honest Christian could accept as proper.
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reniaa
HI allelsefails
I will answer with a question...
Do you think the greek scriptures are only the bible?
Do you deny the hebrew Scriptures are his inspired word?
I acknowledge the whole bible as God's words! and the hebrew scriptures are part of it. So Using Jehovah in the Greek and remember they are sparing on this 237 times is not a lot and at best is only a reflection of what is already established by God as his name nearly 7000 times in the hebrew scriptures. you would have to show me a scripture specifically acknowledging by God himself that he changed his mind about us using his name for me to believe that we shouldn't.
You also forget god's name does appear in the greek scriptures but in part as Jah 4 times.
Reniaa
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cabasilas
Well, if Scripture does not show Jesus praying using "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" then I guess it's not that important for Christians to pray using a name for God either.
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allelsefails
So ignoring my question makes me feel you are not sincere in approaching a converstion. Please understand - I was not and do not argue against using Jehovah as God's name I always have and probably always will. I am arguing not about imperfect men making mistakes. I'm talking about the DISHONESTY of translating the word of God in a way that cannot be supported by Greek text whole or in part. Please answer the questions. I always try to answer yours and common courtesy would suggest you do the same. -
What do you think about using Jehovah in the Greek scriptures where it is not a quote from the Hebrew? Did you know that this is done many times - especially in Paul's writings?