San Diego Pastor & Wife Told They Can't Have Bible Study Group In Their Home!

by minimus 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    These things get more complicated than most of us can even imagine.

    If the JW's have the right to gather for religious studies in someone's home, and take a collection, and they don't have to comply with laws about public meeting places with disabled parking spaces rules and emergency exit rules and fire codes, THEN

    Joe Sixpack has the right to assemble people at his home-church on Sundays with the same exceptions to the safety/public building laws or rules.

    Joe Sixpack doesn't have to apply for a zoning variance for a business or a church in his residence because the JW's have established that it's okay.

    Joe Sixpack can firmly establish his home as a residential church and then apply for a tax exempt status. Once his residential church is established, he has circumvented the zoning requirements. Now, he can apply to tear down his home and build a church on the spot right there in the middle of his block, afterall it's already a church.

    WTS may have gotten wind of communities making trouble for this exception to the zoning rules and abandoned the home book study for that reason along with the shortage of elders.

  • minimus
    minimus

    very possible

  • imissmaine
  • JeffT
    JeffT

    So what happens if Joe Sixpack wants to have twenty car loads of people over every Sunday to watch football?

  • Hortensia
    Hortensia

    the article is slanted and uses words that trigger knee-jerk responses, it is not well written. Is there any evidence the county employee actually asked those questions? I would think the issue is not religion, but traffic and parking. For instance, usually in residential neighborhoods, residents are not allowed to run businesses in their homes that increase traffic in the neighborhood. I don't think religion should have special privileges; religious organizations should follow the same rules as the rest of us. If they are having a lot of traffic and parking problems in the neighborhood due to these meetings, on a regular basis, then they should find somewhere more appropriate to hold their meetings. Of course, I think religions should pay taxes too. No special privileges for religion that the rest of us don't also have.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    Since everyone is reading this as a parking and congestion issue (which I'm really not getting from the article itself, but I guess that is possibly the county's concern), I'd have to wonder whether other similar activities are similarly prohibited in the area. Are cub scout troops allowed to meet in private homes with attendances of 15 or so? How about Superbowl parties - do the residents have to restrict them to a certain size? What about birthday or anniversary parties? The article mentions Tupperware parties, people meeting regularly for poker night, people who meet regularly to watch baseball, etc. Are all these activities also prohibited in private homes in the area because of parking and congestion issues? If not, then what we are seeing here is a pretty clear case of religious discrimination and a violation of the First Amendment. If NO gatherings over a certain size are allowed, then at least the county would be consistent in enforcing its ban (though I'm still not sure it would be within its rights to do so). But if some gatherings are allowed and others of similar size and scope are proibited because of the nature of the meeting, then the Christians are being discriminated against.

    By the way, the First Amendment guarantees the right to practice one's religion and the right to assemble peaceably. It does not guarantee the right to live in a neighborhood with ample available parking at all times and freedom from occasional heavy traffic. Obviously, if the participants at the study were violating the law in the way that they parked their cars, then the law should be enforced by ticketing and/or towing the cars, not by shutting down the assembly.

  • Yizuman
    Yizuman

    Just ban religion and get it over with already.

    Warlock

    The day when you ban it from my home is when you pry my bible from my cold dead fingers.

  • rebel8
    rebel8

    The news story is currently unsubstantiated, and even the lawyer representing the pastor says he cannot substantiate it, so I'm skeptical.

    In another case, there was a couple who were holding religious meetings (studies) at their house in a very upscale, nice neighbourhood but the number of cars that sometimes numbered about 20, were alledgedly blocking all the roads and driveways. It was interupting the peace and quiet of the other residents on the street and was happening every week. They objected to a petition asking them to stop having those meetings on the grounds of religious discrimination.
    Who was wrong - the people having the study groups every week or the people living on the street? Whose rights come first?

    The rights need not inpinge upon each other. Just park legally and be quiet when you go to your study--problem solved.

    ETA: I'm not allowed to run a business out of my home if it generates traffic. Why should my rights to conduct business be less than someone's rights to conduct religious services?

    A government saying, "You can't have large meetings in this building because it's a fire and traffic safety hazard," does not restrict anyone's right to practice their religion.

    When I worked inpatient psych, people used to pull the Religious Freedom card all the time. They tried to say we had to allow them to do anything done under the guise of religion, including:

    • Casting evil spells on other patients, in the patient lounge (truth: just some sociopaths trying to bully others)
    • Attending church off premises (truth: just some manipulative folks trying to get an opportunity to escape a locked unit)
    • Drinking wine at Mass conducted on premises (truth: just manipulative alcoholics trying to get a drink)
    • Praying or watching televised Mass during therapy group time (truth: they had numerous opportunities to do either outside of scheduled group time)

    Most patients did not try to get over. They were nice people.

    When supposed religious freedom has no limits, that violates my rights.

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR

    The thing that is shocking to me, is the utter lack of respect for people's rights to freely practice religion without state interference, and the right to assemble peacefully. This is from people who, I expect, are hopiping mad over the state deciding who one can or can't marry. Just because you HATE Christianity, you have no right to impose your HATRED on those that want to exercise their constitutionally protected rights! You'll pardon me for being blunt, but the rancid odor of hypocrisy is overpowering.

    I also wonder if the San Diego county officials are going to do a serious crack down on other gatherings, such as pool parties, baby showers, wedding showers, birthdays, anniversaries and poker games?

    This is "substantiated". This is from San Diego's Channel 10 news.

    SAN DIEGO -- A local pastor and his wife claim they were interrogated by a San Diego County official, who then threatened them with escalating fines if they continued to hold Bible studies in their home, 10News reported.

    Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy was shocked with what happened to the pastor and his wife.Broyles said, "The county asked, 'Do you have a regular meeting in your home?' She said, 'Yes.' 'Do you say amen?' 'Yes.' 'Do you pray?' 'Yes.' 'Do you say praise the Lord?' 'Yes.'"

    The county employee notified the couple that the small Bible study, with an average of 15 people attending, was in violation of County regulations, according to Broyles.Broyles said a few days later the couple received a written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" -- a process that could cost tens of thousands of dollars."For churches and religious assemblies there's big parking concerns, there's environmental impact concerns when you have hundreds or thousands of people gathering. But this is a different situation, and we believe that the application of the religious assembly principles to this Bible study is certainly misplaced," said Broyles.News of the case has rapidly spread across Internet blogs and has spurred various reactions.Broyles said his clients have asked to stay anonymous until they give the county a demand letter that states by enforcing this regulation the county is violating their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.Broyles also said this case has broader implications."If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" Broyles asked.Broyles and his clients plan to give the County their demand letter this week.If the County refuses to release the pastor and his wife from obtaining the permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    ETA: I'm not allowed to run a business out of my home if it generates traffic. Why should my rights to conduct business be less than someone's rights to conduct religious services?

    Municipalities generally have zoning laws that restrict businesses. This is so that General Motors can't plop a production plant in the middle of a residential neighborhood so that the residents have to deal with the traffic, pollution, and whatever else it generates. I suppose you could argue the same thing about a large church, but (1) we aren't talking about a large church here, we are talking about a home gathering of 15 or so people; and (2) while religious freedom and freedom of assembly are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, freedom to conduct business wherever and whenever one desires are not. So, constitutionally at least, I think the freedom to conduct religious services is a freedom of a higher order than that to conduct business.

    A government saying, "You can't have large meetings in this building because it's a fire and traffic safety hazard," does not restrict anyone's right to practice their religion.

    True enough, although again, I would ask whether other comparable gatherings are being permitted while religious services are being prohibited. If political gatherings, lodge meetings, clubs and societies of various stripes are allowed to meet and religious gatherings are banned, then I think that unconstitutional religious discrimination is being practiced. If NOBODY can have a large meeting in such a building because it is seen as a fire and safety hazard, then fine. Otherwise, the allegation of "fire and safety hazard" is just being used as an excuse to discriminate against religion. And, of course, 15 people gathering in a private home is not a "large meeting" that should be subject to such regulation anyway.

    When I worked inpatient psych, people used to pull the Religious Freedom card all the time. They tried to say we had to allow them to do anything done under the guise of religion

    Obviously, not everything claimed as a right under the rubric of religious freedom needs to be allowed. The examples you cited are a good example of where reasonableness needs to be applied. Society can't allow human sacrifice because someone claims that is what their religion requires, nor need we accommodate those whose religion involves the use of illegal substances. But we are not discussing these extremes. We are talking about whether a homeowner is allowed to have a reasonable number of friends over to visit - for whatever purpose - in his privately owned home, or whether the state has the right to interfere with such gatherings when religion is involved. When my daughter was a teenager, we had several parties in which 30 or 40 people were present at our house. Should the government have shut us down? Would it have been different if the people were there for a Bible study instead of a party? In fact, I would expect the Bible study to have a greater degree of protection than a party. Frankly, the fact that we are even discussing the matter gives me great concern for the future of freedom in this country. A few decades ago, such governmental interference would have been unthinkable.

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