Of all known religious beliefs which one seems most reasonable?

by The Berean 76 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Sorry for the empty post; I can't edit it.

    @ metatron:

    Teleology and ethnocentrism make up a tricky pair. Was there ever a people or a civilisation that didn't think of itself in some way as the omega of creation and history? We can of course relativise this intuition by the study of before and elsewhere; it is much more difficult to imagine the future except as a continuation, or projection, of the lines we see converging toward us.

    What myths will be meaningful in a couple of centuries depends on what will happen in the meantime. What we are most proud of today (technology, medicine, democracy, human rights, economical growth) is closely related to individualistic values which are so close to us that we can hardly question them, which may subsist and develop even further but may also be completely overturned by social, political and ecological disasters. In a different context, other parts of religious traditions (including Christianity) which are presently repressed and dismissed as utterly unreasonable may gain a new meaning and sound reasonable again. E.g. the overcoming of "self" on behalf of a community (which needs not limit to a particular people or culture or even to the human species). Interestingly, this is just what much of today's "irrationalism" is after...

  • gubberningbody
    gubberningbody

    Of course, Perry we must wonder about the case of the greedy ever-whining wimp-nephew of Abraham - Lot, who by his whining caused others not to perish who were themselves on the hit list, namely those in Zoar.

    "18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah! 19 Please, now, your servant has found favor in your eyes so that you are magnifying your loving-kindness, which you have exercised with me to preserve my soul alive, but I—I am not able to escape to the mountainous region for fear calamity may keep close to me and I certainly die. 20 Please, now, this city is nearby to flee there and it is a small thing. May I, please, escape there—is it not a small thing?—and my soul will live on.” 21 So he said to him: “Here I do show you consideration to this extent also, by my not overthrowing the city of which you have spoken. 22 Hurry! Escape there, because I am not able to do a thing until your arriving there!” That is why he called the name of the city Zo′ar." - Ge. 18:19-22

    Why would a whining wimp cause God to change his mind as regards those who were truly wicked?

    (point is that they weren't)

    Oh, and no. You are wrong about Abraham.

    If you are right, then were Abraham just cave to the "Whatever Jehovah does is Ok, because he does it." would make Abraham as much of an immoral imbecile as any other who makes that claim of God.

    Being bigger, smarter, stronger, and longer lived and impossible to effectively thwart does not a moral being make.

    Abraham knew this and this is why he said:

    "Is the God of all the earth not going to do what is right?!!"

    Any other explanation is PC-spinning as regards his words in the same manner as the WTS has excused Samson for his lack of morality in the matter of selecting a Philistine woman with big jugs as a wife. "

    "14 Then Samson went down to Tim′nah and saw a woman in Tim′nah of the daughters of the Phi·lis′tines. 2 So he went up and told his father and his mother and said: “There is a woman that I have seen in Tim′nah of the daughters of the Phi·lis′tines, and now get her for me as a wife.” 3 But his father and his mother said to him: “Is there not among the daughters of your brothers and among all my people a woman, so that you are going to take a wife from the uncircumcised Phi·lis′tines?” Still Samson said to his father: “Get just her for me, because she is the one just right in my eyes.” 4 As for his father and his mother, they did not know that that was from Jehovah, that he, Jehovah was looking for an opportunity against the Phi·lis′tines, as at that particular time the Phi·lis′tines were ruling over Israel." - Judges 14:1-4

    Samson was just an ass of a jawbone in the hands of Jehovah. Morality had sunk so low that the champion was no better than an amoral Rambo on steroids. Samson, in my eyes only became a moral being at his choice of death at the end. Before all that he was nothing but a tool.

    Of course the WTS and other Bible writers simply cannot tolerate that their heroes should be less than the best (even if this points out how Jehovah is in control)

    Narkissos, I'm at the point where I must examine each statement in the bible as to its context w/in the times as an anthropologist might do as well as ask the question "Is this really the express will of the Almighty?, Or just a record of what transpired?...Or neither..." Quite frankly I'm at the point where I'm not sure I can do anything except take personal responsibility as if I were Jehovah and determine what I think ought or ought not to have been done in each and every case.

    If I'm supposed to imitate God as beloved children, then must I not know why, when, where and if he has said or done any of the things which were said or done in his name?

    I have to. I can't accept something just because others have, because it's convenient or even soothing.

  • Perry
    Perry

    gubberningbuddy,

    As far as Lot goes; Where does the text say that those people in that city were righteous?

    Oh, and no. You are wrong about Abraham. If you are right, then were Abraham just cave to the "Whatever Jehovah does is Ok, because he does it." would make Abraham as much of an immoral imbecile as any other who makes that claim of God. Being bigger, smarter, stronger, and longer lived and impossible to effectively thwart does not a moral being make. Abraham knew this and this is why he said. "Is the God of all the earth not going to do what is right?!!"

    You seem to be caught in a double snare of false premise and circular reasoning reducible to: Since God is an imbecile, Abraham would have been an imbecile to agree with him.

    But Abraham did agree with God after God told him that not even ten righteous men could be found. "Abraham believed God". But you make it sound that Abraham corrected God when in fact just the opposite is true. You would do well to read the story again and learn the same lesson that Abraham learned.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    gubberningbuddy,

    Great point about Zoar... seems like practical considerations fare better in negotiation with Yhwh (the town is close and it is small, Hebrew miç`ar, pun on the name of Zoar, ço`ar, so he can skip it, no big loss) than moral ones.

    We have no choice but reading the Bible as we are, including our moral sensibility, no matter how anachronic it may be to the texts. This is part of the experience, which may often lead to questioning the texts, sometimes to questioning our own values. Imo this is all the more interesting if we haven't decided once and for all to agree or disagree with the texts globally simply because they are in the Bible (with the risk of unconsciously twisting them in one sense or another).

  • Perry
    Perry
    We have no choice but reading the Bible as we are, including our moral sensibility,

    Who says that is our ONLY choice? By what sort of static logic do you appeal to when you say we must judge God who is infinite and righteous by our finite and unrighteous reasoning?

    This is the exact drama played out in the story of Abraham, Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham was arriving at a wrong conclusion becuase of a faulty premise. There is no evidence that Abraham continued in his previous false reasoning. Instead "Abraham believed God".

    By your rules, Abraham would have remained stuck with a false conclusion.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Narkissos, is it an acceptable reduction to say: We read a text, we read ourselves (through interpretation)?

    Perry, we have no choice but to encounter God as we are. In fact, as a Christian, I would say that God became one of us, so we could encounter him in a meaning way (can any finite mind comprehend the infinite mind?).

    BTS

  • Perry
    Perry
    Perry, we have no choice but to encounter God as we are.

    How we are is finite, unrighteous. Jesus invites us to be perfect even as his Father is perfect. God invites us to transcend who we are...to bust out of conformity (literally with - form) and to be transformed (to break out of the form).

    And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. - Romans 12:2

    This is what Abraham was helped to do.

  • mraimondi
    mraimondi

    id say the jdubs have most of it right (core beliefs and SOME of the lesser ones - trinity, hellfire, soul, etc), it's the people that get in the way.

    in reality, no organized religion knows anything.

    edit:

    umm let me clarify... the jdubs have it right as regards THE BIBLE. i misread the question. I really dont know what i believe atm, but as it stands, i am appreciating eastern philosophies.

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr

    Spiritual atheism

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Who says that is our ONLY choice?

    I do. And I even say that your choice of obsequiously and slavishly justifying the "Bible God" no matter what you think he means is ultimately yours.

    Job's friends took exactly the same path. Job openly blamed unfairness on God from his moral judgement and perception. Guess who "God" said "spoke correctly about him"?

    By what sort of static logic do you appeal to when you say we must judge God who is infinite and righteous by our finite and unrighteous reasoning?

    Did I? I cared to state that our moral sensibility is of necessity anachronic to the texts. I didn't say we are "right" and they are "wrong". Not the other way round either.

    Instead "Abraham believed God".

    Methinks you are mixing up two Abraham stories. The only place where "Abraham believed Yhwh" is 15:6 (if I'm not mistaken).

    BTS.

    Agreed. The metaphor of the mirror (James) comes to mind.

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