by lurk3r 38 Replies latest jw friends
Actually, is there a scripture that says one outranks the other?
I do know that when an earthly anointed one could use help or supernatural strength, the angels could be sent. To me this indicates that an angel is at an advantage vs. any human regardless of whether they are supposed to go to heaven. Hence, if I had to choose, I'd rather be an angel, like Michael.
Minimus,
Actually, is there a scripture that says one outranks the other? ... I do know that when an earthly anointed one could use help or supernatural strength, the angels could be sent. To me this indicates that an angel is at an advantage vs. any human regardless of whether they are supposed to go to heaven. Hence, if I had to choose, I'd rather be an angel, like Michael.
Receiving angelic help is not a sign that the one being helped is inferior or under angelic authority. Jesus Christ (as first born in the JW world, and 2nd person of the Trinity to most Christians) is not in anyway inferior to angels, for he was directly ministered to by angels.
I agree that there are ranks or 'stations' of angels, Seraphs, Cherubs, Messengers, and Arche-(Chief)-Angels. No angels that I know of have any 'authority' over humans, especially not in the dogma of the JW Anointed.
Angels have superior abilities due to their spirit nature ... but that should not be confused with 'authority' as Blondie asserted, or being 'above' in rights and rank. The JW 144,000 are in all cases of a higher station than angels, even while on earth, due to being part of the Heavenly New Jerusalem, and Christ's wife-like organization. As a JW, as well as other JWs I knew, considered angels as our 'brothers.' A 'brother' is not a boss, and the role of angels is more like that of a 'servant' or minister.'
Regarding "authority", do YOU believe that anointed have authority over angels (per WT.)?
The scripture says God created man a little lower than angels.
The Amazing-Blondie-Minimus subdebate reminded me of the flip-flop treatment of Ephesians 3:10 in WT literature, which might be a track. From the little I can find, in 1955 (5/15) the Watchtower vaguely and ambiguously suggested that the congregation of anointed was a "channel" of revelation to the angels:
In fact, the progression of revealed Bible truths channeled in the line of communication through the anointed Christians brought startling information even to angels. "This was to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might bemadeknownthroughthecongregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God." The state of progressiveness for the earthly channel was indicated by Jesus when he said: "Most truly I say to you, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do, and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father." In the year 55, after a rich flow of many new progressive divine communications as to Jehovah’s purposes, Paul still indicates a future greater unfolding of new things. "For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known."—Eph. 3:10; John 14:12; 1 Cor. 13:12; 1 Pet. 1:12, NW.
Then a QFR from 1963 (1/15) "corrected" that suggestion, by implying that "God's dealings with the congregation of anointed," not teaching through them, was the revelation to the angels... that was the "standard" explanation in the following years, and apparently it was not officially turned over.
However, from at least 1985 (11/1) onward (and a number of times in the 90s), Ephesians 3:10 is again quoted as a prooftext that the congregation of anointed is a channel of revelation -- only the quotation is regularly truncated so that the reader doesn't understand to whom the revelation is addressed, i.e. the "heavenly powers"...
Well I don't know if this is relevant or not to your discussion but at least it is funny :)
Minimus,
Yes, humans were created lower than the angels in rank and ability ... and so by JW teaching, humans have a lower station. But humans were never placed under the 'authority' of angels. It was God himself who dealt directly with Adam.
In JW theology, the Anointed are given a new birth, a new hope, and become children of God while in the flesh on earth. They are considered spirit creatures and can even call Jehovah God, 'Papa.' They are 'brothers' of Christ, the First Born of all creation, which puts them in a new class that is above the angels.
I did not believe as a JW that the Anointed had authority over the angels. Rather, that the Anointed were only above angels in their new role, much like an Admiral in the Navy out ranks a Private in the Army, but does not have direct authority over him. The Private may be physically superior to the Admiral, more intelligent, and better educated ... but an Admiral is still higher in his station.
1 Corinthians 6:3: "Know you not that we shall judgeangels? how much more things of this world?
Interesting, Nark.
From my understanding, the anointed on earth were classified as "a little lower than angels". After their ressurection they would attain immortality and clearly be superior to the angels.
They were given a token. They were to judge angels in the future. That comment suggests they were not on the same plane as angels.
I too did not believe that anointed ones had any authority over angels. And they were "above angels" because of what they were to inherit due to their calling. But it could be said angels were "above" anointed on earth in relation to location, strength, etc.
Minimus,
I read over again the various exchanges, and perhaps we are all talking from differing perspectives. So, here is a bullet list of what I see:
1. Angels are superior to humans, including Anointed, in their knowledge, powers, and abilities.
2. Angels (i.e. the faithful ones) have never sinned or displeased God.
3. Angels are servants that do the bidding of God, and by extension, serve Christ as King, and His Bride.
4. Anointed receive a "token" as you correctly noted, so they have yet to fully enjoy all aspects of their new status.
5. Anointed are "credited" with righteousness, or sinlessness, though they have sinned.
6. Anointed are "credited" with being spirit creatures while still in the flesh, by virtue of a new birth to a "living" hope.
7. Anointed are also Priests right now in the flesh, and are already called "Saints" or "Holy Ones."
8. Anointed are brothers of the King, Jesus, and co-heirs right now in the flesh.
9. Anointed right now out-rank Angels in their various roles as Saints, Priests, co-Heirs, brothers, and the Bride of Christ.
10. Anointed are "Officers" in ranking in one spiritual service and Angels are "Enlisted" ranking in another spiritual branch.
11. While Anointed out-rank Angels, like an Admiral in the Navy, they do not have authority over Angels, who are like soldiers in the Army.
12. Angels, while superior to Anointed in ability, do not have authority or rank over Anointed; they serve the Anointed as messengers from Jehovah and aid the Anointed in the work of the Kingdom by any means possible.
I may be wrong, but my 25-years living the life of a JW Anointed taught me the foregoing ... so, if I am in error, I welcome anyone presenting something written by the Watchtower Society that would say otherwise, whether negatively refuting what I presented, or positively supporting a contrary view. It would be of help if perhaps Blondie could step up with the many hundereds of Watchtower references she claims to have that would do exactly what she claimed.
NOTE: I do not support the above dogma or views, whether correct or not ... as I now hold an entirely different set of views.
I won't address the points brought up by others on this thread. Nor your personal opinion on the subject. But as a jw for many years, I never once remember being told that the anointed jws on earth direct the angels or have authority over them. After their death and resurrection to heaven, yes, I was taught that.
But as to the anointed on earth having authority over the angels while these anointed (including the supreme anointed one, Christ) are still on earth (dead and resurrected by not yet ascended in the case of Christ) or whether the angels have direct or indirect authority over the anointed while on earth:
** w02 3/15 pp. 14-15 par. 8 Christ Leads His Congregation ***
Jesus (not the anointed on earth) also uses actual angels to lead his followers today. According to the illustration of the wheat and the weeds, harvesttime would come at “the conclusion of the system of things.” Whom would the Master use to do the harvesting? “The reapers are angels,” said Christ. He added: “The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness.” (Matthew 13:37-41) Moreover, just as an angel directed the steps of Philip to find the Ethiopian eunuch, so there is abundant evidence today that Christ uses his angels to direct the work of true Christians in locating honesthearted ones.—Acts 8:26, 27; Revelation 14:6.
*** w87 8/1 p. 11 pars. 5-6 Christ Actively Leads His Congregation ***
5 Furthermore, the apostle Peter wrote concerning Jesus: “He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven; and angels and authorities and powers were (after his resurrection not while on earth) made subject to him.” (1 Peter 3:22) Angels are, therefore, another means that Jehovah put at Christ’s disposal of actively leading the Christian congregation.
6 Consequently, when we read in the book of Acts that “Jehovah’s angel” or “an angel of God” acted in support of the Christian preaching work or intervened in behalf of members of the Christian congregation, there is every reason to believe that such angels acted under the supervision of Christ Jesus. (not the anointed on earth) (Acts 5:19; 8:26; 10:3-7, 22; 12:7-11; 27:23, 24) As “Michael the archangel,” Christ has angels at his command, and he used them in actively leading the Christian congregation in the first century C.E.—Jude 9; 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
*** w79 12/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Consequently, it seems that when Paul said that anointed ones “shall judge angels” he was referring to the future executing of judgment on wicked spirits
*** hs chap. 2 p. 21 par. 12 Holy Spirit Active in the Invisible Heavenly Realm ***
Those godlike “sons of God” are superior to man. Hence the psalmist David, after recognizing the highness of God above the heavens, went on to say: “What is mortal man that you keep him in mind, and the son of earthling man that you take care of him? You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike ones.” (Psalm 8:4, 5) Who are those “godlike ones”? They are angels, for the Bible writer, when making an application of Psalm 8:5, says, in Hebrews 2:6-9: “You made him a little lower than angels.” So, as regards level of existence and of powers, man is unchangeably lower than those “sons of God,” those heavenly angels.
(Thus while Jesus was on earth before his resurrection, although the chief anointed one, he was lower than the angels.)
*** w69 12/1 p. 735 Questions From Readers ***
The exalted Jesus Christ and the anointed Christians resurrected to rule in heaven with him are actually on a higher level than the spirit creatures normally called angels. Jesus and his anointed followers in heaven are immortal. (1 Tim. 6:15, 16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54) In contrast, the angels are mortal, as can be seen from the fact that Satan and his disobedient angels will be destroyed. (Rev. 20:10, 14; Luke 8:30, 31) Additionally, the Bible shows that Christ has been elevated above the angels and that his anointed followers will share in judging angels.—Heb. 1:4; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Cor. 6:3.
*** w07 3/15 p. 6 What Christ’s Coming Will Accomplish ***
After his resurrection, Jesus told his disciples: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matthew 28:18) “Angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him,” states 1 Peter 3:22.
*** w00 6/15 p. 16 par. 16 Honor the Ones Given Authority Over You ***
While the false teachers spoke abusively of “glorious ones”—elders who were given authority in the first-century Christian congregation—the angels did not speak abusively of the false teachers who were causing disunity among the brothers. The angels, being in a superior position and having a keener sense of justice than humans, were aware of what was taking place in the congregation. Yet, “out of respect for Jehovah,” they left the judgment to God.—Hebrews 2:6, 7; Jude 9.
(The "judgment" by the anointed of others is not scheduled until after their resurrection to heaven)
*** w63 1/15 pp. 63-64 Questions From Readers ***
Does the statement at Ephesians 3:10 mean that God teaches the heavenly governments and authorities, the angels, through the members of the Christian congregation while they still are on earth?—B. F.
No, that is not what the apostle was referring to. Examine the context and note that what is under consideration is, not a knowledge of all the purposes of God, but his purpose to take from among men a group to be joint heirs with Christ in heavenly glory.
Beginning with verse 5, we read: “In other generations this secret was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit, namely, that people of the nations should be joint heirs and fellow members of the body and partakers with us of the promise in union with Christ Jesus through the good news. . . . To me, a man less than the least of all holy ones, this undeserved kindness was given, that I should declare to the nations the good news about the unfathomable riches of the Christ and should make men see how the sacred secret is administered which has from the indefinite past been hidden in God, who created all things. This was to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord.”—Eph. 3:5-11.
God created man a little less than the godlike ones or angels, so it does not seem reasonable that the angels would have to wait on men for instruction. To the contrary, Jehovah God has repeatedly used angels in teaching earthling man, and in particular to minister to those who are members of the Christian congregation with a heavenly calling.—Dan. 10:10-14; Heb. 1:14.
Then how is it that God makes known his greatly diversified wisdom through the congregation? In that what God does by, for and with this congregation serves as an illustration of the greatly diversified wisdom of God. This sacred secret is something for the angels to view with admiration and amazement, and so it can be said that through it these angelic creatures get to see the greatly diversified wisdom of God as they had not known it before.
What about 1 Peter 1:12? It reads: “It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, but to you, they were ministering the things that have now been announced to you through those who have declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent forth from heaven. Into these very things angels are desiring to peer.” This text refers to the same thing as does Ephesians 3:10. Angels were desirous of understanding the things the prophets of old wrote about the Christian congregation, but their understanding awaited God’s unfolding of his purposes, as at Pentecost, and not their being taught by the earthly members of the Christian congregation.
The point being made by Ephesians 3:10 might be illustrated in this way. By observing the starry heavens we are impressed by God’s attributes and so it can be said that through these galaxies, inanimate celestial bodies, God teaches us of his qualities. It is not that these bodies know something that man does not know, for they know nothing, but by their very existence they teach us. And so with regard to the angels and the earthly members of the Christian congregation. Through what God has done for the congregation and will yet do for it He is making known to the heavenly governments and authorities, the angelic hosts, his greatly diversified wisdom.
*** w51 11/15 p. 691 par. 20 Request to God for a Good Conscience ***
Let us be baptized in Christ’s example, for he is the Greater Noah in the ark of a new system of things for salvation. He died innocently because of the wrongdoing of others, but in the completing of his baptism into death he was resurrected and is now at God’s right hand in heaven, angels, authorities and powers being made subject to him
*** w02 9/15 p. 10 par. 2 “Pay More Than the Usual Attention” ***
Paul emphasized that the resurrected Jesus Christ was given a position superior to all the angels, for he was seated at God’s right hand.
*** ts chap. 18 p. 154 Why Many Now Living Have Opportunity Never to Die ***
He willingly gave up his superior position in the heavens and became a man, a “little lower than angels.” (Hebrews 2:9; Philippians 2:6-8)
