Blondie,
All my JW books are in storage. Perhaps you could show your references first.
1 John 4:1 What is the JW and non JW take on this scripture? Thank you!
by lurk3r 38 Replies latest jw friends
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KAYTEE
Blondie,
You must not forget the "GLORIOUS ONES" the princes of that new system, the crags in the desert, the extension of heavenly authority your not telling me that they can be questioned ?
KT
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marcopolo
what is ""good news"" that declare to YOU .. is as teach wts???
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blondie
I'm sure, Jim, that with your years in the WTS you must have had something in mind when you said that the anointed jws on earth have authority over the angels while the anointed are still on earth. All my WT references say differently, not a one says that the anointed while on earth have authority over the angels. My references number into the hundreds that support that concept. Of course, if you have one from the WTS pubs that says differently..........it is not on my CD or my old pubs that I can find. You seemed fairly certain and I know we would all be interested in the WT support for that.
Blondie
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Narkissos
lurk3r,
Interestingly enough the notion of a "spirit of the world" also occurs in 1 Corinthians 2:12, as opposed to the "spirit from God" (to pneuma tou kosmou / to pneuma to ek tou theou) and, guess what... the NWT translates "spirit". Cf. also the Johannine parallel in John 14:17.
In 1 John 4:1-3 just like v. 4-6 the "spirits" speak (through either 'true believers' or "false prophets"), since they can be told from one another by what they confess (homologeô, v. 2-3)
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Homerovah the Almighty
The conceptual reality of the history of the WTS is that it was started by a banker and a salesman, in the spirit of true and open capitalism.
They had an onset agenda and that was to sell and circulate literature.
One can assume that the initial expenditure by these men wasn't going to create financial lost to them.
And I think this an very important realization of the legality and truthfulness of the WTS. writings.
Even if they were to be wrong in their interpretations of bible scripture, they had to make sure that what they were printing
had to attract the publics attention.
False prophets possibly yes but definitely good forward thinking book publishers
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lurk3r
Nark - Y My education, and limited way of "thinking", puts me at a loss to properly "understand" contextual errors at present. With that, I pose a question. wtf? The 1 Corinthians quote you have going
on, I can see where your coming from. From reading your bio, I see you worked in the translating dept at the Borg and that was the "beginning of the end for ya". In your above post, you point to an error in the rendering of the NWT. Working
there, when you DID notice a discrepency, what was the procedure that would follow? Who ultimately made the final call and on what basis? Was partiality shown to those who were more "in subjection" to the ones making the final call? Surely
disputes would arise. Did it ever get heated? Since the 50's, when the NWT was introduced, there has had to be a "turnover rate" of translators. Are the new brothers brought into such area's of importance "coached" with regards behaviour and
"different 'conditioning' ?" Is it just the same carryover as the "Kingdom Hall 'conditioning' "? Did you personally talk with the GB about things, or were the considered to "sacred" for laymen? GOD IT FEELS GOOD TO ASK!!! Better yet, to ASK and
have someone who KNOWS things like this!
Narkissos - I can't thank you enough for this opportunity to glean more.
Pee.Ess. If you have talked about all this before, just point me to it.
lurk3r
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Narkissos
lurk3r,
Sorry to disappoint you :) but all the translation work I made for the Watchtower, back in the early 80s, was from English to French; I had no part in the French NWT as it had already been published in 1974. However I did hear a bit about the translation of the (first) French NWT from the "brother" who did the job practically alone (I have an old thread on this topic, http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/86744/1/The-French-NWT). I was only involved in (non-JW) Bible translation a few years after I left the WT.
Translators in Watchtower branches (in my case, France) do not have any special contact with the Governing Body. I did meet a few GB members when they were on zone tours or other special occasions but I was "nobody" to them and that was very impersonal. I do have an amusing story though, which I think I have told earlier on this board but without a working search function I cannot find it. I was translating a Watchtower study article (3/15, 1985) which involved a complicated discussion about Galatians 4, trying to show that the women involved in the Pauline allegory meant organisations, not covenants. At some point I stopped and thought: but Paul explicitly says they are covenants (4:24a)! I expected to find some explanation about this particular sentence. There was not. It was simply avoided.
I then thought, well, it must be a mistake; as incredible as it may seem they must have missed that passage, or forgotten to explain it (if only to explain it away) . They can't simply avoid a sentence in the passage they discuss to say the opposite. So I suggested to the brother in charge of the dept. that we should ask "Brooklyn" before it is published. He said that it sounded a good idea and that he would ask the Branch Committee -- the English edition was not yet published, as we had recently moved into simultaneous publication; we worked on drafts. But something I had not noticed in the draft printout (because I really never cared about that) were the initials of the author: FWF. That was not lost on the Branch Committee. They understood it was a Fred Franz article and they would not dare to ask any question. A few weeks later I was discharged of the Watchtower magazine translation... :)
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Amazing
Blondie,
I'm sure, Jim, that with your years in the WTS you must have had something in mind when you said that the anointed jws on earth have authority over the angels while the anointed are still on earth. All my WT references say differently,not a one says that the anointed while on earth have authority over the angels. My references number into the hundreds that support that concept. Of course, if you have one from the WTS pubs that says differently..........it is not on my CD or my old pubs that I can find. You seemed fairly certain and I know we would all be interested in the WT support for that.
You are both evading and changing the issue.
1.) I never said the anointed have authority ... I said that they are above, that is, out rank. An Admiral in the Navy out ranks a Private in the Army, but does not have authority over him/her. The Anointed, by their very nature are already considered (classed as) spirit creatures by virtue of their being the adopted children of God, co-heirs with Christ, part of the heavenly Bride of Christ while still here on earth. No Angel has ever had, or will ever have such a high station. (Keep in mind I do not accept this nonsense anymore)
2.) You state that "All" of your WT references say differently ... that "not a one" says that the Anointed on earth have "authority" [vs above in the context I stated] over the Angels. You state that your references in the "hundreds" support that (your) concept. Thus, by your own statement, you should be able to pick up any WT reference in your possession and prove your statement. Such a claim, though, is a bit of a stretch, is it not?
3.) You said, "I'm sure, Jim, that with your years in the WTS you must have had something in mind ... " What I have in mind is what I stated in my original point and question [quoted below] and in point number 1 above, which is consistent with WT teaching, and consistent with my question to you. You have not quoted one thing that contradicts my point or answers my question. I no longer retain my JW books in my possession, as they are in storage in another state ... and frankly, right now, I cannot cite a reference due to that disadvantage. Clearly, though, you have the advantage of having "hundreds" of WT references in your possession, and yet you cite nothing that refutes the position I presented. Show me that I am incorrect ... if I am, then so be it.
4.) In my 25-years professing to be a JW anointed, I studied the topic closely, as it deeply affected me. There is nothing I can recall in WT literature that shows the JW Anointed are below, subject to, or as you now put it, under the "authority" of the Angels. The free children of the Father are, by their nature, a whole new class right now, while they are on earth. They are declared righteous and have their new nature imputed to them. How could they possibly be lower than or under the authority of the angels?
Bottom line: You made an assertion, and I called you on it with the following statement / question: "Historic JW dogma holds that the Anointed are above the angels, most especially once they reach heaven and rule as kings with Christ. Has something changed recently in JW beliefs that would have lowered the JW Anointed?" which you have yet to really answer.
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minimus
My understanding is that anointed on earth were not ranked above an angel. I agree with Blondie here. I too have no more WT. pubs except an old AID book.