1 John 4:1 What is the JW and non JW take on this scripture? Thank you!
by lurk3r 38 Replies latest jw friends
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snowbird
1 John 4
Don't Believe Everything You Hear
1 My dear friends, don't believe everything you hear. Carefully weigh and examine what people tell you. Not everyone who talks about God comes from God. There are a lot of lying preachers loose in the world.
The JW take is that it applies to Christendom - of course.
MY take is that it should be applied to all religionists.
Sylvia
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blondie
I actually preferred this scripture because it says that even if an angel (who outranks the jw anointed on earth) were to say something beyond what the bible says, not the heed them.
(Galatians 1:8-9) 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.
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Amazing
The Douay-Rheims Bible says: 1 Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: 3 And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world. 4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome him. Because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore of the world they speak, and the world heareth them.
Clearly, this gives a different flavor to speak of every 'spirit' verses 'everyone.'
Catholic commentary on the above scripture is quite interesting and would make the heads of many ex-JWs spin right off:
1 "Try the spirits"... Viz., by examining whether their teaching be agreeable to the rule of the Catholic faith, and the doctrine of the church. For as he says, (ver. 6,) He that knoweth God, heareth us [the pastors of the church]. By this we know the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
2 "Every spirit which confesseth"... Not that the confession of this point of faith alone, is, at all times, and in all cases, sufficient; but that with relation to that time, and for that part of the Christian doctrine, which was then particularly to be confessed, taught, and maintained against the heretics of those days, this was the most proper token, by which the true teachers might be distinguished form [from] the false.
3 "That dissolveth Jesus"... Viz., either by denying his humanity, or his divinity.Blondie:
"I actually preferred this scripture because it says that even if an angel (who outranks the jw anointed on earth) were to say something beyond what the bible says, not the heed them."
Historic JW dogma holds that the Anointed are above the angels, most especially once they reach heaven and rule as kings with Christ. Has something changed recently in JW beliefs that would have lowered the JW Anointed?
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Homerovah the Almighty
Thats absolutely correct Snowbird, the JWS have purposely and deceivingly step themselves a side of this scrutiny
You will know these false prophets/profits by their works and proclamations.
God never intended the gospel to be commercialized, not in biblical times either $$$
Defining The False Prophet And Their Fate:
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.Jer 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
The Motivation of the False Prophet Is Money:
Micah 3:9 [NIV] Hear this, you leaders of the house of Jacob, you rulers of the house of Israel, who despise justice and distort all that is right;
Micah 3:10 [NIV] who build Zion with bloodshed, and Jerusalem with wickedness.
Micah 3:11 [NIV] Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean upon the LORD and say, "Is not the LORD among us? No disaster will come upon us."
Micah 3:12 [NIV] Therefore because of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become a heap of rubble, the temple hill a mound overgrown with thickets.Jer 6:13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
Jer 6:14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
Jer 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.Ezek 22:25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
Ezek 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they showed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
Ezek 22:27 Her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
Ezek 22:28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered mortar, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken. -
wobble
I love that scripture that Blondie quoted,it stops Dubs in their tracks when they are off on their extra-biblical stuff(most of what they teach)
it also means the Mormons should not have listened to the Angel Moroni.
love
Wobble
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Narkissos
lurk3r,
I'm not sure what you have in mind (if you wrote anything in your OP I can't read it), but the sudden NWT shift, in the translation of pneuma, from "spirit" to "inspired expression" definitely breaks the flow of the text. In the NWT the previous verse (3:24, remember there are no "chapter breaks" in the original text) reads "Moreover, he who observes his commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one; and by this we gain the knowledge that he is remaining in union with us, owing to the spirit which he gave us." There is a direct connection with 4:1: not all spirits are from God. This is lost on the NWT reader, unless he gets it from the footnote. Moreover, the NWT proceeds with "inspired expression" down to v. 6 and misses the opposition between "the spirit of truth and the spirit of error" which is a classic dualistic formulation in contemporary Judaism (cf. for instance Testament of Judah 20:1 or the Qumran Rule 3:18f, where those two "spirits" are personified, as angels: the text of Galatians which Blondie quoted is not very far). At v. 13, and then in chapter 5, the NWT returns to "spirit" without notice.
Of course the "spirits" in 4:1ff manifest themselves through expressions: they are borne by teachers who can be "false prophets" (pseudoprophètai, v. 1). From the message they produce the Johannine believer can tell whether they (the spirits, not just the expression) are from God or from the world (v. 5), whether the "spirit or truth" or the "spirit of error" (v. 6) is "talking". Carrying over one implication of the text to the meaning of the word (pneuma) actually reduces the scope of the passage: discernment of spirits, not just teachings, is involved.
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blondie
Historic JW dogma holds that the Anointed are above the angels, most especially once they reach heaven
Can you show a WTS statement, Amazing, that says the WTS believes that the anointed while on earth rank above the angels....all my research says they will not outrank the angels until after their resurrection and they reach heaven.
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Homerovah the Almighty
Dam it, I think I missed out out being one of the anointed, why didn't anyone tell me about this part ?
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lurk3r
My original thoughts in posting this title, were to get opinions on whether the "spirit" talk was literal or not. Homerovah, I talked to an elder a long long time ago about this particular scripture, his interpretation was literal. Among the things he said was "there are spirits watching you...". For the record, he was a fine brother, and not an overbearing dictator. Through personal experience, his words have always stuck out in my mind...and I wondered if what he said was a JW thing or not. Where IS that dear Leo?
Amazing- thank you for bringing the Catholic view to my attention. It seems all religions like to claim scripture for themselves. I hope you can answer Blondie's question if ya get back here...
When i first read this scripture, years ago in the NWT, it was the "inspired expression" that raised an eyebrow. Looking in another bible to quench my curiousity left me even thirstier, as now that word was SPIRIT! whoa.
Sylvia, if I may, your reference,is the first time I ever seen it literally put to "everyone"...big difference in context. How did you come to refer to the bible you use?
Nark - I never knew there were no "chapter breaks" till your post. Thank you kindly. Thats really interesting too...who made the call on that one? Your post was very detailed and I could understand it still...thanks for articulating, and what your saying makes sense to me.
The NIV draws distinction in the "spirits" too. vs 2 gives a big "s". (holy spirit I presume) "This is how you can recognize the "Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowleges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God..." If we are going refer to the "spirit" as purely verbal expressions, then this doesn't make sense to me. There are too many people out there that acknowledge JC, that are "ungodly" and clearly cannot be from God. Does that make sense as a no brainer? At least with this translation?
Another reason that would think that these "spirits" mentioned in 1-4 are literal and not just "verbal expressions" , is because the wording in vs 4-6 is quite distinct from 1-3 and talks about "speaking" and "viewpoints" of the world. That sounds more like a verbal expression to me... I do not wish to lean on my own understanding though, anyone else care to elaborate or clarify further?
Thanks for this discussion peoples, it means a lot to me. Really.
lrkr