by WTWizard 42 Replies latest watchtower bible
And thank you for proving my point...
If you don't agree with us about our invisible man in the sky who does magic then your evil and you will therefore be tortured for all eternity... If the inherent contradiction in that statement doesn't show clear evidence of brain damage then the mental wrangling required to believe that nonsense will surely CAUSE said damage...
Cognitive dissonance runs rampant still...
6: O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Wizard, this reminds me of what my momma always said:
I brought you into this world and I can damn sure take you out!
Diseased minds, or minds that have been deceived with the hell threats from early childhood? If children are exposed to religion continuously enough before they are about 7, they are likely to remain faithful to that religion for life--that is, unless they get suckered into a cult sometime later. And, if they later go apostate from that cult, they are likely to go right back into the same, or a similar, religion once they leave the cult.
Those that did not take well to the religion scam by the time they are 7 will be less open. They might still get suckered into a cult, but if they leave, they are more likely to see through the scams. They may try other religions, but they are likely to be seen as similar in scope to the Washtowel (but less severely enforced). And they are that much more likely to become, for all intents and purposes, atheists or God-haters.
WT Wizard: If children are exposed to religion continuously enough before they are about 7, they are likely to remain faithful to that religion for life--that is, unless they get suckered into a cult sometime later. And, if they later go apostate from that cult, they are likely to go right back into the same, or a similar, religion once they leave the cult.
The Bible even tells you so!
Train up a child in the way (we) think he should go....and when he is old he will not depart from it.
The psychology was there to see it all along. The problem was that it was given a positive spin concerning religion. There is some early training in discipline that is very useful; but religion is not part of it. A child should be allowed his own thoughts and explorations in the world.
Respectfully, Wiz, I think that scripture is being misapplied. It was spoken to pre-Christian era Israel. I think, could be wrong, but seems to me God is telling the nation of Israel that they can be replaced. The imperfection is the 'vessel' was their tendency to worship other gods. He threatened them a lot to straighten up or else. That's the way I read it - but I'm no scholar.
Christianity in general and the WT in particular wants to take every last word in the Bible and apply it to themselves - well, all the good stuff anyway - even though sometimes the words address only Israel in particular circumstances and at only particular times in their history. It's like taking Napolean's speeches to his troops and trying to make them fit with my modern life - it don't fit. I don't think this is saying anything like God makes the vessel for only one life destiny - I believe we have freewill to choose.
Choose to worship God - or don't. It's only up to each one of us to choose.
Watkins
For the biblical view of this topic please read Romans 9
I don't think man has had free will since Adam.
Adam's sin gave each of us the knowledge of good and evil. With that knowledge came responsibility, that is, we have no excuse and will be held acountable for our deeds. (It is not Adam's sin that we are condemned for but our own)
Unless the Holy Spirit regenerates our hearts we will not and cannot choose God. It's not something we are capable of.
Faith is not something we have on our own. Faith is a gift from God. We don't chose to have faith. We can't. Once the Spirit has changed our hearts then and only then are we given faith.
Salvation is a free gift, from God, poured out on us through the sacrifice of Christ by the grace of God. Those who have been called will not be judged. They are free from the Law. Romans 8:1
To put that a different way, those that are called had their judgement day, 2000 year ago, when Jesus took the blame and paid the price for their sins. (when I say "their sins" I mean He paid the price for each and every sin that they have and/or will commit. If I stole an apple when I was young that sin is one of the sins that Christ died for)
One misunderstanding that causes confusion, Christ did not die for everyone. Christ died for His sheep, the one's that would be called.
Those who God does not call will not be saved no matter what they do. That might seem unfair but no one deserves anything except destruction to start with. So God is really being unfair when He saves, not when He condemns. Condemnation is what we all deserve.
If, to you (that's the universal you, I'm not picking on any one person), what God does has to make human sense then you are an unbeleiver. Everything we know was created by God and the rules are His rules, not ours.
Peace
I understand what you're saying, Bob, but no, I don't believe we are predestined to be either saints or sinners. We become either believers or unbelievers, imho. But to say that we are predestined to a particular 'fate' is, well, fatalism. I believe God knows which we will choose, but He doesn't choose that which we will become. From my own experience, I got to a point when I had to choose what to believe, or whether to believe in nothing at all. Surely we all reach that point sometime in the course of our lives.
There's more to the Bible by way of addressing this issue than Paul's letter to the Romans; and it all happens to be a "biblical view":
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
James 4:4
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
1 Peter 4:3
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.
John 7:17
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Looks very much like a personal, individual choice to me. I've heard the "God doesn't have to make sense'' argument before - to me, the argument itself doesn't make sense! Don't make me list all the Bible verses that spell out how much God wants us to dig for and gain understanding of Him and His ways - but I will if it helps.
Watkins
As under cover of departing Day
Slunk hunger-stricken Ramazan away,
Once more within the Potter's house alone
I stood, surrounded by the Shapes of Clay.
Shapes of all Sorts and Sizes, great and small,
That stood along the floor and by the wall;
And some loquacious Vessels were; and some
Listen'd perhaps, but never talk'd at all.
Said one among them--"Surely not in vain
My substance of the common Earth was ta'en
And to this Figure moulded, to be broke,
Or trampled back to shapeless Earth again."
Then said a Second--"Ne'er a peevish Boy
Would break the Bowl from which he drank in joy,
And He that with his hand the Vessel made
Will surely not in after Wrath destroy."
After a momentary silence spake
Some Vessel of a more ungainly Make;
"They sneer at me for leaning all awry:
What! did the Hand then of the Potter shake?"
Whereat some one of the loquacious Lot--
I think a Sufi pipkin-waxing hot--
"All this of Pot and Potter--Tell me then,
Who is the Potter, pray, and who the Pot?"
Hebrews 8:10-11
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Peace
