Here's the TSA thread.
Warlock
F*** the TSA
by Warlock 29 Replies latest jw friends
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primitivegenius
there is one inescapeable truth..... you have a choice..... do i force my rights or do i let them do whatever the hell they want so i get where i wanna go in the time frame i want to, with the least amount of hassel.
every person that is stopped by anyone in a badge has that option.
its up to them individually to determine how the rest of their day is gonna go.
are you gonna take the path of least resistance and give them harmless answers (not always the truth) that they will belive or are you gonna insist upon your rights.
you gotta realize that probable cause is mostly bullcrap to use against people who dont kiss their asses and jump to do whatever they say. on the other thread about DHS you KNOW that dog didnt smell anything yet that resulted in a pastor having a really bad night.
do you have rights......... hell yes you do, but are you gonna INSIST upon them? Do you have a lawyer and is he gonna be able to get there asap? is there gonna be video to prove what really happened.... in a TSA checkpoint that is gonna be a NO unless its their video. Are you going to be able to sue whoever is involved? that could make it worth while....... if you act according to your rights and dont resist then sure maybe they will do something that will let you sue them but there is a high probablility that you wont get to your destination on time. who knows how many years a lawsuit against the govt is gonna take to be resolved and how rich your lawyer is gonna be by the end of it.
i always check the tsa website before i travel........ and i double check the day before to see what they have changed since i last checked. 3 oz of liquid......... wtf. ok do they allow lighters...... no...... matches....... yes............. no wait zippo is sueing them so now they gotta allow lighters again......... what can i put in carry on what can i put in checked.... what can i not bring at all. all of that changes to often to keep track of.
is that good enough? no it isnt........... i had a friend who actually worked for TSA........ he took a trip up north, i do not recall if he went to NY or just connected there. you can have blades in checked baggage......... he was a martial artist..... and i mean a teacher of martial arts with documentation to prove it.......... just not with him. had swords in proper containers inside his checked baggage but guess what.......... you cant have them in NYC unless you have that proof with you. he flys into nyc no problem because they checked his bags at another airport and it was legal there......... he tried to come home........ guess what happened. now TSA is supposed to allow things that can be carried in checked baggage to go. they are NOT NYPD.............. yet they called the police up there.
so my friend proceeded to tell the TSA agents that they couldnt involve local authorities because according to their own rules what he was doing was legit............. and he produced his DHS govt id to show how he knew................. so next they showed him what he should have known........... you question their authority at their airport.......... your gonna have a bad day. if he had his proof with him maybe the cops wouldnt have arrested him................ MAYBE. he got his court date........ he flew back to NY and had his proof that he had been a teacher of martial arts for over 20 years, i still dont know if he got his swords back..........
I make it my business to know what TSA is gonna look for and i take only the bare necessitys with me. I want my bags to show up on xray with a couple of zippers maybe and the rest clothing. If i have several bags im gonna make sure that its Easy for them to find whatever it is they are looking for. i will basicly PICK the bag i want them to search and put all my wires and liquids over 3 oz and lead bars into it.
its funny that people want to point fingers at DHS and TSA.............. this kinda crap hasnt just been invented with them, cops have been doing this same crap for ....... well since the beginning. they associate mostly with criminals so they are gonna assume that you are one and treat you accordingly. i got stopped by a cop for going 8 miles over the speed limit......... guess what.... hes training a new officer. He sees....... ok guys im a redneck.............. lets just get that out there......... he sees 4 boxes of .40 cal ammo in my center console...... in plain sight. he didnt see the other 2 boxes in my glove box or the 4 cases of 12 gauge shotgunshells in my trunk........ well .......... untill he searched the car. he asked if he could search the vehicle........ i said well i had somewhere to be and didnt really want him to........ so guess what. he informs me that because he can see the boxes he has probable cause so im like........ ok whatever feel free. then he asks ..... any weapons or dangerous things i should be aware of........ nope.
that poor dumb son of a b****............ my trunk had so much crap in it......... i had a couple dufflebags of clothes incase i need to change clothes while im out...... one was a gym bag and it had been in there for three days at least and was RIPE, i had two cases of skeet and the ammo......... nothing that was dangerous but that trunk was PACKED........ it took him 45 minutes. he just KNEW i had something i shouldnt and he had to be thorough for the newbie........... i was just laughing my ass off watching him look in every nook and cranny and still come up empty.
i finally told him that if he needed to he could set things on the ground so he could actually clear items and not go through them three or four times...... finally he just gave up. i made it to my movie only 10 minutes late.............. then after the movie i moved the ammo to the trunk lol so hopefully that wouldnt happen again.
now that was a nice enough cop, and i didnt give him any reason to get pissed at me................ was it a violation of my rights....... yeah. but i find that i really dont like getting tazed and thats probably the least of my worries at the end of the day. screw them breaking out my windows and detaining me for hours.
bottom line: you question any law enforcement officers authority........... your in for a bad day. does that make it right.......... hell no but it does give a person a choice to make.
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sammielee24
when you travel with a great deal of cash they are required to check into it....... but thats like tens of thousands of dollars..... not freaking $4700.00. some people take more than that for a week long vacation. i would have asked them in what way my money was a danger to either the airline or other passengers? its
Not necessarily. Travelling with $10,000 (ten thousand) in cash which includes anything that could be a form of cash asset, must be declared at the US border. If you don't, they can check you over and confiscate the cash which they then 'hold' until they determine that you aren't money laundering or drug running etc. The rule book will tell you it's not illegal to carry larger amounts of cash but they do tell you that you have to tell border agents. How long they 'hold' that cash is I suppose up to them...kind of like the new laptop rule..'holding' your computer until they confirm it's okay for you to have it.
This rule alone is ridiculous - however, I saw the tape of this guy who was just travelling interstate and couldn't fathom why he was targeted - until he explained his part in the Ron Paul activities. How ridiculous. The guy was very polite and you could see the agents were trying to strong arm him but he kept his cool. He was great! I think this is going on a lot more than anybody has a clue about or wants to admit.
As a permanent paid up, green card resident in the USA, I also now have been informed that I will have to have my biometrics taken each time I enter the country. For those that have not been through the process - before getting your green card, you have to submit and pass medical, FBI and biometrics..plus pay thousands in fees...then pay more to remove temporary conditions on your card and pay again for update biometrics. Considering all of that, a green card holder is pretty safe ....but we still have to go through another check at the border...and considering that I don't know many of my US citizen friends who have had all those checks done..whose the bigger threat I wonder?
Anyway, get your passport now. It's only a matter of time that you will be forced to show it as you travel between States via air It is also handy to keep on you when travelling by car through the States...we got stopped in Arizona at a checkpoint and it is 'papers please'. Be ready.
sammieswife.
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sammielee24
bottom line: you question any law enforcement officers authority........... your in for a bad day. does that make it right.......... hell no but it does give a person a choice to make
So true. And like you - I always check the allowances, I never check any bags..I travel with only a small carry on regardless of the length of time I am away and with the full realization that at any time, they may open it up and look inside..I abide by the rules and just hope every body is having a good day when I have to travel. sammieswife.
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Warlock
Look, this guy and that pastor chose to exercise their legal rights, even though they paid a great price. If everyone who encountered similar situations did the same, there would be more light shed on the problem and it would stop.
The problem is that most people won't inconvenience themselves and then they complain about their "rights" being taken away.
I had a situation in my life in dealing with an officer from the CHP who was looking for an excuse to search my vehicle. He said he smelled weed in my vehicle and that would have never been true, even in the days I smoked weed, and I told him so. I was ready to refuse a search and prepared myself to at least be handcuffed. I also figured I would go to jail, but he let it drop.
If you are doing nothing wrong, you must stand up..................period.
Warlock
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tenyearsafter
Cameo/Warlock...just an FYI...here is the reality from someone with 25 years of law enforcement experience:
Your car can only be searched or towed for cause. (the following are CA law)...
To tow your car, you either have to have been arrested, be expired for 6 months or longer on your registration, be a habitual (and unpaid) parking citation violator, be obstructing a roadway, be abandoned or have your vehicle held for evidence in a crime.
To search your car, you can be requested to voluntarily allow a search, have contraband in plain view (drugs, drug paraphernalia, weapons, etc.), be arrested and have your car inventoried for safekeeping, have a drug dog indicate from outside the vehicle that there is contraband inside the vehicle, have other probable cause evident, ie: smell of marijuana, alcohol, etc. emanating from vehicle, have search and seizure provisions attached to a person's probation and limited search if you fail to provide a driver's license on demand by an officer (search limited to areas a DL could be concealed). I am sure I have forgotten some others as well.
Miranda only applies to statements you make while:
In custody, and
being interrogated about a criminal actIf you are asked questions prior to a custodial situation, ie: DUI investigation, Miranda does not apply. If you make voluntary statements, even when in custody, they are admissible in court.
As to the TSA, I am not sure if they have federal law enforcement officer status or not. If they don't, then they can ask whatever they want without Miranda, but you don't have to answer.
I am not defending the actions of the TSA people (they often have no sense of priority or common sense when it comes to evaluating situations), but it is very typical that when someone has a large amount of cash on their person, that the likelihood of contraband being involved increases dramatically. It certainly is not unlawful to have large amounts of cash, just raises a red flag. That being said, the person was perfectly within his rights to refuse to answer questions about the money...that right would not prevent the police from be called in for further investigation.
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cameo-d
TenYearsAfter,
Thank you for an informative post. I realize that law enforcement people often have a dangerous job, and therefore I suppose they view everyone as 'guilty until proven innocent' as a safety precaution. Sometimes I wonder if they have 'quotas' to make, or get brownie points, or just push to see how much the general public is even aware of laws and statutes. But as primitivegenius said, for some of us, we will just choose the path of least resistence and get on with life.
According to this info below, what may seem as 'unreasonable search' to citizens is actually now legal and lawful.
The Fourth Amendment to the Constitution contains a border-related exception to unreasonable search and seizure laws, permitting searches at border checkpoints that wouldn't be permitted elsewhere. But federal statute 8 CFR 287.1 (a)(1-3) defines the border zone for enforcement purposes as encompassing an area within 100 miles of the actual border, with the possibility of extending it further under certain circumstances. This means that the US Border Patrol could conceivably set up random checkpoints asking travelers for a passport in places like Columbus, Ohio; Houston; or anywhere in the state of Florida. And, in fact, it appears that it has been doing exactly this.
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tenyearsafter
Hi Cameo...
I agree that sometimes the course of least resistance will get you out of an investigative situation more quickly. Typically, and I can only speak for myself and fellow department members, we aren't looking to "jack" people up. I would guess that I am interested in searching less than 10% of the vehicles I stop. I will try to get into a car if I strongly suspect that there is contraband in the vehicle...especially weapons. I work in Southern California, which has a high concentration of gang members of all types, and finding guns in cars is quite a common occurrence. Drugs like meth, heroin and cocaine are often associated with crimes such as burglary, so if I find dope I also look for property in the car that might be stolen. I am not interested in finding a small amount of marijuana in a car, but rather things that pose a public safety risk. I make no apologies for using whatever legal means I can to get into the car of someone who needs to go to jail. I don't condone violating people's rights to accomplish this, but anything legal is fair game.
Typically, I suggest to people that when dealing with law enforcement to consider the "attitude test". If you are uncooperative, disrespectful or rude to an officer, it is likely you will fail the attitude test and subject yourself to that officers suspicions regarding your actions. Can some officers treat you differently for being a "jerk"...sure...but any cop with a few years on has heard it all numerous times, so the attitude will roll off their backs. When someone treats me with disrespect and demands their rights, it raises a red flag to me that there is something more than a civil rights issue here, and makes me want to look deeper. I won't violate your rights, but I will exhaust every legal avenue available to me to investigate the situation.
On the border issue, I believe this has been the case for quite a while. Here in So Cal, we have permanent border checkpoints located 40-50 miles from the actual border...if you are stopped, you can be required to prove your right to be in the U.S.
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sammielee24
This means that the US Border Patrol could conceivably set up random checkpoints asking travelers for a passport in places like Columbus, Ohio; Houston; or anywhere in the state of Florida. And, in fact, it appears that it has been doing exactly this.
I don't think a lot of people understand that. They believe that they are totally free to go anywhere they want right up to the border of the country they live in and will probably look at you as a conspiracy nut if you try to explain it to them.
sammieswife.
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sammielee24
Fact Sheet on U.S. "Constitution Free Zone"
from the ACLU
The problem
- Normally under the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the American people are not generally subject to random and arbitrary stops and searches.
- The border, however, has always been an exception. There, the longstanding view is that the normal rules do not apply. For example the authorities do not need a warrant or probable cause to conduct a “routine search.”
- But what is “the border”? According to the government, it is a 100-mile wide strip that wraps around the “external boundary” of the United States.
- As a result of this claimed authority, individuals who are far away from the border, American citizens traveling from one place in America to another, are being stopped and harassed in ways that our Constitution does not permit.
- Border Patrol has been setting up checkpoints inland — on highways in states such as California, Texas and Arizona, and at ferry terminals in Washington State. Typically, the agents ask drivers and passengers about their citizenship. Unfortunately, our courts so far have permitted these kinds of checkpoints – legally speaking, they are “administrative” stops that are permitted only for the specific purpose of protecting the nation’s borders. They cannot become general drug-search or other law enforcement efforts.
- However, these stops by Border Patrol agents are not remaining confined to that border security purpose. On the roads of California and elsewhere in the nation – places far removed from the actual border – agents are stopping, interrogating, and searching Americans on an everyday basis with absolutely no suspicion of wrongdoing.
- The bottom line is that the extraordinary authorities that the government possesses at the border are spilling into regular American streets.
Much of U.S. population affected
- Many Americans and Washington policymakers believe that this is a problem confined to the San Diego-Tijuana border or the dusty sands of Arizona or Texas, but these powers stretch far inland across the United States.
- To calculate what proportion of the U.S. population is affected by these powers, the ACLU created a map and spreadsheet showing the population and population centers that lie within 100 miles of any “external boundary” of the United States.
- The population estimates were calculated by examining the most recent US census numbers for all counties within 100 miles of these borders. Using numbers from the Population Distribution Branch of the US Census Bureau, we were able to estimate both the total number and a state-by-state population breakdown. The custom map was created with help from a map expert at World Sites Atlas.
- What we found is that fully TWO-THIRDS of the United States’ population lives within this Constitution-free or Constitution-lite Zone. That’s 197.4 million people who live within 100 miles of the US land and coastal borders.
- Nine of the top 10 largest metropolitan areas as determined by the 2000 census, fall within the Constitution-free Zone. (The only exception is #9, Dallas-Fort Worth.) Some states are considered to lie completely within the zone: Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Hawaii, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont.
Part of a broader problem
- The spread of border-search powers inland is part of a broad expansion of border powers with the potential to affect the lives of ordinary Americans who have never left their own country.
- It coincides with the development of numerous border technologies, including watch list and database systems such as the Automated Targeting System (ATS) traveler risk assessment program, identity and tracking systems such as electronic (RFID) passports, the Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI), and intrusive technological schemes such as the Secure Border Initiative Network (SBINet) or “virtual border fence” and unmanned aerial vehicles (aka “drone aircraft”).
- This illegitimate expansion of the extraordinary powers of agents at the border is also part of a general trend we have seen over the past 8 years of an untrammeled, heedless expansion of police and national security powers without regard to the effect on innocent Americans.
- This trend is also typical of the Bush Administration’s dragnet approach to law enforcement and national security. Instead of intelligent, competent, targeted efforts to stop terrorism, illegal immigration, and other crimes, what we have been seeing in area after area is an approach that turns us all into suspects. This approach seeks to sift through the entire U.S. population in the hopes of encountering the rare individual whom the authorities have a legitimate interest in.
If the current generation of Americans does not challenge this creeping (and sometimes galloping) expansion of federal powers over the individual through the rationale of “border protection,” we are not doing our part to keep alive the rights and freedoms that we inherited, and will soon find that we have lost some or all of their right to go about their business, and travel around inside their own country, without interference from the authorities.
