Atheists - Please answer this

by Nellie 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • Nellie
    Nellie

    I guess I lean more towards an agnostic point of view; though if asked, I will still identify myself as a Christian. Why, I'm not really sure if I'm honest with myself. It all boils down to how I feel about the earth and all of the inhabitants thereon. I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that the earth and everything on it is a by-product of an accident. There's just too much "vastness" - the universe is too big - the science of biology is too extensive. There just had to be a Creator. But who that creator is and/or what his plans are for mankind and the earth - well, now those are questions that I don't have answers for. But this didn't all happen by happenstance - that I can't buy.

    I can understand our collective experiences turning many away from religion as a whole. I don't know if I could ever imagine myself a "part" of another one in my life. But how do you discount a creator?

  • streets76
    streets76

    If there has to be a creator, then it also follows that the creator has to have a creator. Don't you see where that logic leads you?

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Streets stole my answer.

    Saying that there has to be a creator, you are saying that the complexity, vastness, details are too much to be an accident. Yet you say that an omnipresent being was able to make the complexity, vastness, details. You are saying that something at least just as difficult to understand as "the accident" is responsible.

    If the decision is heavy, it is not important to make it. You don't have to know that God exists or not. You do have to enjoy life and take your own journey of enlightenment. Enlightenment can include not knowing. I am not trying to derail such a huge factor. It's just not worth losing sleep over.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    But how do you discount a creator?

    There isn't evidence for one. We have zero direct, objective evidence of a creator. Plus indirectly a creator does not need to be inferred in order to explain the diversity of life.

    Arguing that there must be a creator because of the complexity of the universe is ultimately self-defeating, as others have pointed out.

    By the way, I think the distinction should be made that I don't "discount" a creator. I simply won't believe in one until objective evidence is presented. And honestly, if there were a creator... what makes you think it happens to be the one talked about in one holy book of one religion on one planet in one solar system in one galaxy of the vast universe?

  • sir82
    sir82
    I cannot wrap my mind around the idea that the earth and everything on it is a by-product of an accident.

    This is the picture-perfect example of the false dilemma:

    "Either there is a creator, or the earth is the 'byproduct of an accident' ".

    Umm, might there be a 3rd, or 4th, or 10th, alternative?

    I suspect you would be hard-pressed to find a scientifically literate atheist who views the earth as a "byproduct of an accident".

  • Robert7
    Robert7
    Umm, might there be a 3rd, or 4th, or 10th, alternative?

    Exactly! It's not either/or. Being Atheist just means there is no known proof of a creator (and creation in itself is not proof). It doesn't mean you have to believe in the big bang theory or evolution.

  • Spook
    Spook

    It's quite easy, but it is important to start in the present and work backwards, not immediately start with "the grand beginning."

    1. The world around us now can be beautiful or terrible, but is well explained at great depth through the natural sciences with no need to appeal to anything supernatural in the present. No gods, no ghosts, no ESP., nothing supernatural.

    2. When you ask the inevitiable question of "how did things come to be this way?" we again have science and history in a completely natural way which stretch back to the dawn of recorded history. Beyond that we have anthropology and archaeology stretching back even furhter.

    3. At some point the waters become less clear and answers, even if verified in theory, are sort of less satisfying.

    4. At some further point you get to things which are currently unexplained and perhaps unexplainable. Here most people have a tendancy to make something up.

    5. Here's the kicker...understand that you have an instinct, not always a productive one, to seek patterns and explanations. This is the basic function of human consciousness and language faculty. You will tend to want an answer...even an easy one...when no answer exists.

    6. Where science cannot tread, philosophy can still stretch to shed light. Read some of the treatments of deism and generic theism arguments such as this one. You'll find there are many good arguments for which you can conclude "probably, god does not exist." You may even conclude, as I have, that you KNOW certain gods do not exist in the same way you KNOW that round squares do not exist...because they can't.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    I am neither agnostic nor atheist. But to my atheist friends: this is is how I see it.

    The Road that stretches before the feet of a man is a challenge to his heart long before it tests the strength of his legs. Our destiny is to run to the edge of the world and beyond, off into the darkness: sure for all our blindness, secure for all our helplessness, strong for all our weakness, gaily in love for all the pressure on our hearts.

    In that darkness beyond the world, we can begin to know the world and ourselves, though we see through the eyes of Another. We begin to understand that a man was not made to pace out his life behind the prison walls of nature, but to walk into the arms of God on a road that nature could never build.

    Life must be lived, even by those who cannot find the courage to face it. In the living of it, every mind must meet the rebuff of mystery. To some men, this will be an exultant challenge: that so much can be known and truth not be exhausted, that so much is still to be sought, that truth is an ocean not to be contained in the pool of a human mind. To others, this is a humiliation not to be borne; for it marks out sharply the limits of our proud minds. In the living of life, every mind must face the unyielding rock of reality, of a truth that does not bend to our whim or fantasy, of the rule that measures the life and mind of a man.

    .......

    God has said so little, that yet means so much for our living. To have said more would mean less of reverence by God for the spendor of His image in us. Our knowing and loving, He insists, must be our own; the truth ours because we have accepted it; the love ours because we have given it. We are made in His image. Our Maker will be the last to smudge that image in the name of security, or by way of easing the hazards of the nobility of man.

    The Great Truths that must flood the mind of man with light are the limitless perfection of God and the perfectibility of man. The enticements that must captivate the heart of man are the divine goodness of God and man's gratuitously given capacity to share that divine life, to begin to posess that divine goodness even as he walks among the things of earth. The truths are not less certain because they are too clear for our eyes. The task before our heart is not to hold a fickle lover but to spend itself.

    Without these truths, and the others that fill out the pattern of a man's days, we are underfed weaklings, starving waifs, paralyzed in our living not only by lack of strength but even more by lack of light. To live a man must move by these steps of his heart; and how can he move until he can see and be drawn by the beauty of Goodness and Truth?

    No man can get such wisdom of himself in time to begin living his life or, indeed, in time to end it. Wisdom must be given to him, for it belongs to God. He can have this wisdom that must be had; but not through the stumbling steps of his own reasoning. He can have it if he will take it from his Maker. He can see in the darkness if he will look through the eyes of God. He can begin life with wisdom lent by God, and have his heart flooded with gratitude for the loan; or he can prefer the false light of the illusion that tells him he if self-sufficient, and die before he begins to live.

    A man hardly dare face mere natural life alone; alone, he cannot even dream of sharing the divine. Yet, to escape disaster, he must not only so dream, he must make the dream come true.

    BTS

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    Suppose I have a bunch of parts for a watch. I put them in a tumbler, and shake them. The chances of getting a working watch on the first try is almost zero. Almost being the key word. The second try is also a poor bet. But, if I have unlimited attempts, eventually it will hit. And I will have a perfectly working watch.

    Same for the earth. The chances of having success on the first try is extremely low. But, if at first you do not succeed, you gather the pieces together and try again. Each attempt takes a few hundred billion years, and it takes an extremely huge number of attempts. But, if you are looking at infinity, this will go on until it gets it right. And, that is how evolution is possible.

  • Pig
    Pig

    the answer is natural selection.

    yes things are complex. If you think complexity cant exist without a designer then how can god, who is infinately complex, exist?

    Did he always exist? Well thats a weak way out. It doesnt solve anything. It's no better than saying aliens put us here and other aliens made those aliens and so on all the way back, infinitly. Or the earth sits on a turtles back. But what does the turtle sit on? Well it's turtles, all the way down.

    If there is a god he has a terrible way of getting things done. Why would he use evolution when he could just make everything properly the fist time. And if you dont belive evolution it's because you have not properly looked at the evidence. No sain person could reject the huge amount of evidence.

    It's like rejecting gravity or any other scientific theory which has had to pass through the same scientific process to be accepted.

    It all comes down to , evidence for god = nothing , evidence for evolution = ever expaning volumes of infomation

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