Is DISFELLOWSHIPPING being phased out?

by african GB Member 47 Replies latest jw friends

  • sir82
    sir82

    As a corollary to SBF's post: I can see them "changing without really changing anything", sor of like the infamous "Voting" QFR from a few years back.

    Something along the lines of "It is up to each individual Christian to decide if he will shun an unrepentant wrongdoer. But here are some <wink wink> factors that a mature Christian <nudge nudge> would consider..."

    I.e., it would theoretically be up to your conscience to shun a former member or not, but there would be no doubt in an experienced JW's mind what is expected of him/her.

    It would be the same kind of mealy-mouthed wishy-washy claptrap that exists now regarding joining the military or accepting a blood transfusion - someone who does so is considered to have "disassociated himself by his actions" rather than being "disfellowshipped", so the Society can save face (and $$$) and technically say "oh we most certainly do not expel anyone if they join the military / accept blood."

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    sir82,

    Good points.

    Introduce "Brother Some" and it's a done deal.

    "Some brothers have decided that their Bible-trained conscience will not allow them to ____________."

    Legal Department is happy and the "spiritual" people get the message.

    -LWT

  • Mickey mouse
    Mickey mouse
    I wonder if the Witnesses got rid of disfellowshipping if the ex-JW community would disintegrate. It seems to be what keeps many former Witnesses together in a certain sense - the common experience, the shared sense of injustice. If disfellowshipping is done away with, I wonder if people who walk away would be less inclined to see the need to come together for support. It stands to reason. JWs might just become like any other religion and former members would not need to feel so bitter. Apostate websites would decrease in number and intensity.

    I agree. The way the WBTS attemts to censor opposition only fans the flames IMO. They have to know this and I wonder sometimes whether they will attempt to wave a white flag by encouraging the elders to turn a blind eye to family members associating with ex members.

  • Mrs. Fiorini
    Mrs. Fiorini

    Slim brings up some good points about the possible consequences to the ex-JW community if they did. I can see an upside for the WT there.

    However, I think there is a greater downside to the org if they phase out DFing. Slim, you did an exceptionally good thread a week or so ago about British sociologist David Voas's predictions for the WT. It inspired me to do further research and I read some of sociologist Rodney Stark's work (also referred to on your thread). It really expanded my understanding of the effects of DFing on the JW religion. He said one of the reasons such a high percentage of JWs are so committed to the WT is that they systematically reject any who aren't. He felt this is part of what kept them strong as an organization. It creates a great deal of pressure on the average JW to perform. Very few religions have the high degree of committed members that the WT has for this reason.

    It made me rethink the whole DFing thing from the perspective of how it strengthens the org. Stark said that if they didn't kick out the less committed, it would probably have the effect of weakening the whole group, making it socially acceptable to avoid FS, not follow all the rules, etc. For this reason I think the WT will continue the practice. They want to keep the congregation "clean," just not in the way I had previously thought they meant.

  • minimus
    minimus

    Being disfellowshipped is now a person simply no longer being a JW.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    They will always disfellowship dissenters; they have to.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Mrs Fiorini that is great you are interested in a sociological perspective on JWs. I try to start conversations on those issues sometimes but not many here seem all that interested. The Stark article is interesting but it has a number of flaws I feel. He borrowed from the old thesis about strict churches growing faster, which is fair enough. But the fact is JWs are not growing as fast as Stark predicted, and he failed to identify things that currently inhibit JW growth, such as the lack of a firm endtime expectation since the "generation" teaching was dropped, and the impact of disaffected former members. He wrote a similar article proclaiming phenomenal Mormon growth too - yet much of the data indicates the Mormon church is having serious trouble making and retaining members these days. The number of active members of the Mormon church is actually declining.

    If you found the Stark article interesting I am sure you would find James Beckford's book The Trumpet of Prophecy fascinating. It's a bit dated now, but it is still the best sociological analysis of the Witnesses there is in my opinion.

    I think you are right it would have a detrimental effect on Witness growth and commitment levels if they got rid of disfellowshipping. But I am not saying the Society would imagine they would benefit from dropping the practice. It is about making hard choices. They had to make a decision like this before, remember when they scrapped the literature charge.

    Everyone knows that the Society is short of income these days. And it seems pretty clear the rot started in the early 1990s when they stopped charging for the literature. So why did they do it? If they kept on charging they wouldn't they have fewer financial problems today? Well they never dropped it just because it seemed a nice idea. They faced a hard choice because of the legal situation over whether they wanted to acknowledge they were a publishing company and start paying taxes, or whether they would drop the charge and hold on to their image of being a religion rather than a business.

    Similarly the lawyers may now present the Governing Body with a stark choice: either they can stop disfellowshipping or else face the possibility of running out of money fighting lawsuits over the issue. They may dislike the idea of stopping disfellowshipping, but likely they would view it as preferable to going bankrupt. Another scenario is that governments might threaten to restrict or remove religious status from Jehovah's Witnesses unless they get rid of disfellowshipping. That was sort of what happened in Bulgaria over the blood issue wasn't it?

    Sir82 may be right, they could try and engineer a removal of the disfellowshipping system in print but try to keep it in practice. On the other hand if the legal/financial threat to the organization is great then they may decide such a strategy is too high risk and go all out for a complete change.

    They could make the change with much fanfare, claim a deep spiritual insight has prompted it, or insist they are making the change because Armageddon is "so near" as another poster mentioned above.

  • Mrs. Fiorini
    Mrs. Fiorini

    Slim,

    Great points about the Stark article. I also felt he left out an important consideration, the fact that they are a cult. This abuse of their followers has ramifications, and makes it difficult to compare them with other religions who don't use mind manipulation. I believe it is something that should be factored into any analysis of the organization.

    I also agree it's difficult to run a cult without a firm expectation that the "end" will come in the next few years. While the WT maintains this is still true, as you pointed out, there is the problem of their change in the "generation" doctrine. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if there isn't a little uptick in the rate of growth for the next few years, even in developed countries. They will exploit the economic crisis for all it's worth, and certain of their followers will buy into that, at least until it is resolved and things go back to normal.

    I will check into The Trumpet of Prophecy. It sounds interesting.

    I agree that they cut their own throat when they decided to avoid taxes and offer the literature on a contribution only basis. I can't help but think they would have done better seperating the religion out from the publishing company and operating it as a for profit entity, even if they had to pay taxes. On the other hand, publishing companies aren't doing that well these days anyway, so maybe they would be in the same boat no matter what.

    I agree that they are always willing to spin their decisions in ways that mislead their critics as the Bulgaria situation bears out. We'll have to wait and watch what they do. I don't envy them. It's not easy to run a cult these days. They have created their own problems so many times on so many issues. My guess is they will continue to do so.

  • jamiebowers
    jamiebowers

    Df'ing for sexual "sins" may eventually be phased out only because it would be easier and cause less strife for the WB&TS. In a sick way, it may also help them to excuse their lack of enforcement against pedophiles. However, it would defeat their own purpose of keeping the rank and file brainwashed if they failed to df "apostates"

    ...I wonder if the Witnesses got rid of disfellowshipping if the ex-JW community would disintegrate. It seems to be what keeps many former Witnesses together in a certain sense - the common experience, the shared sense of injustice. If disfellowshipping is done away with, I wonder if people who walk away would be less inclined to see the need to come together for support. It stands to reason. JWs might just become like any other religion and former members would not need to feel so bitter. Apostate websites would decrease in number and intensity.

    There will always be exjws, whether Christian, atheist or otherwise, who will want to expose the false doctrines of the WB&TS, so there will always be a community. It may shrink in size, IMHO. I find it hard to believe tha df'ing will be phased out. I agree that it probably won't be in print but enforced nonetheless.

  • metatron
    metatron

    I don't know about phasing it out. The legal basis of it is pretty solid at least in the US except for side effects in child custody cases. Maybe in other countries, the matter invites some leverage as Witnesses get accused (deservedly) for wrecking families.

    I do think that it is likely that they get concerned about too much judicial action damaging congregations and that third world countries need more slack. There have been rumors about elders declaring private moratoriums on disfellowshipping because of the massive numbers of young Witnesses getting expelled. Parents just feel like giving up - and in the Watchtower's nasty little world, they should! (or better yet, get out).

    Would "apostate" sites decline? Maybe so but if we accomplish what is needed in regard to Watchtower cultishness and injustice, why would victory be a bad thing?

    metatron

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