Article: The Atheist's Dilemma

by BurnTheShips 150 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    CAMPOS: The atheist's dilemma

    By Paul Campos

    Why is Stanley Fish so much smarter than Richard Dawkins? That question occurred to me last week, while attending a lecture at which Fish, the well-known literary and legal theorist, did the thing he always does, which is to make the following point over and over again:

    "No believer will find his faith shaken by evidence that is evidence only in the light of assumptions he does not share and considers flatly wrong."

    Richard Dawkins is, I'm told by persons whose authority I accept on faith, a distinguished evolutionary biologist. He holds a chair at Oxford. He has won many prestigious academic prizes. By all conventional measures, Dawkins is an extremely intelligent man. So why does he seem incapable of understanding what Fish is saying?

    Here is Dawkins on the evidence for religious belief: Such belief, Dawkins writes, "will earn the right to be taken seriously when it provides the slightest, smallest smidgen of a reason for believing in the existence of the divine."

    Consider what Dawkins - the author of The God Delusion and, along with Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens, the most prominent of the current crop of evangelical atheists - is claiming.

    He's claiming that if one draws up a list of things that Dawkins considers evidence for the existence of God, and another list of things Dawkins considers evidence for atheism, one list has nothing on it and the other list has everything else.

    And he would, of course, be right. Dawkins is a true believer, and for the true believer literally everything is evidence for the truth of his belief. For example, Fish points to St. Augustine's advice when confronting something that appears to contradict Christian belief: The phenomenon should be subjected "to diligent scrutiny until an interpretation contributing to the reign of charity is produced."

    That is, Augustine's first principle of sound interpretation is that an interpretation is sound if it confirms the truth of the Christian faith. Indeed, for the perfected soul - which Augustine points out again and again he himself is not - "diligent scrutiny" is unnecessary. For "the pure and healthy internal eye," he says, "God is everywhere."

    Dawkins, whose atheism is every bit as zealous as Augustine's Christianity, employs the identical interpretive procedure to reach the opposite conclusion.

    Now Dawkins will object that he, unlike the religious believer, is committed to the methods of "science," and will therefore change his mind when evidence refuting his beliefs appears - but it just so happens none ever has.

    The striking naivete of this viewpoint becomes clear if one asks a simple question: What, for Dawkins, would constitute evidence of God's existence? Suppose an angel of the Lord were to appear before Dawkins, even as he was delivering another lecture on the delusion that God exists. Would such an experience change Dawkins' views?

    Fish has spent his whole career pointing out why it wouldn't: not because of the nature of angels, but because of the nature of interpretation. As long as Dawkins remains who he is now, he will remain incapable of seeing an angel of the Lord.

    After all, a genuine atheist must interpret such an event as a temporarily inexplicable hallucination, or a sudden psychotic break, or a clever technological trick - in short, as anything but evidence that atheism is false. (An atheist who questions the truth of atheism is ceasing to be a genuine atheist precisely to the extent that he is asking himself a genuine question).

    In other words, evidence must always be interpreted within the context of interpretive assumptions which necessarily determine what that evidence is understood to signify, and which by their nature are themselves matters of faith. Thus the only way someone like Dawkins will ever see any evidence for the existence of God will be if he loses his faith that he never will.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Dear Mr. Campos:

    EPIC FAIL

    -LWT

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    What part in particular did you find a failure LWT?

    BTS

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Stanley Fish:

    Stanley Eugene Fish (born 1938) is an American literary theorist and legal scholar. He was born and raised in Providence, Rhode Island. He is among the most important critics of the English poet John Milton in the 20th century [citation needed] , and is often associated with postmodernism, at times to his irritation as he describes himself as an anti-foundationalist. [ 1 ] He is the Davidson-Kahn Distinguished University Professor of Humanities and a Professor of Law at Florida International University, in Miami, as well as Dean Emeritus of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and the author of 10 books. Professor Fish has also taught at the University of California, Berkeley, Johns Hopkins University, and Duke University.
  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    OK, perhaps "Epic Fail" was a bit harsh.

    However, I was enjoying the article until I got to the portion quoted below, which seems overly simplistic or a little disingenous...

    Fish has spent his whole career pointing out why it wouldn't: not because of the nature of angels, but because of the nature of interpretation. As long as Dawkins remains who he is now, he will remain incapable of seeing an angel of the Lord.
    After all, a genuine atheist must interpret such an event as a temporarily inexplicable hallucination, or a sudden psychotic break, or a clever technological trick - in short, as anything but evidence that atheism is false.

    In general, the "nature of interpretation" description could apply to people on both sides of this debate, could it not?

    -LWT

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    In general, the "nature of interpretation" description could apply to people on both sides of this debate, could it not?

    Absolutely, and I don't want to single one side out. This article is obviously a polemic from the point of view of one side (and you know I am Christian), but the points it uses are valid, I think.

    It seems to me that the article argues about how strongly we hold to our underlying assumptions about the world, our premises. In this, an Atheist can hold to faith as strongly as a Theist, the main difference being what premises are chosen. At least, that is how I understood it when I read it.

    BTS

  • Anti-Christ
    Anti-Christ

    Interesting article. It is true that the mindset of a person will influence the interpretation of what he/she sees. Their is an other problem. Lest say for instance you and I would have an encounter with an angel, assuming that your are a christian you have a preset idea of what an angel is, I also have this because I was raised a JW. Is there any way in knowing for sure that this is an angel of God? Would we recognize one if it did appear? Because of are preset idea we expect it to look a certain way, what if it does not? It could be Satan or even a highly evolved alien. is there any way to be sure? This is a genuine question, I have ask myself many times. Is there really a way of being sure 100% one way or the other?

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt
    an Atheist can hold to faith as strongly as a Theist, the main difference being what premises are chosen

    I'm sure that happens a lot.

    It just seems that he asserts that Dawkins wouldn't examine the facts/evidence. I think that notion would be offensive to a scientist. If he were unable to explain the angel via measurable data, honesty would demand that he conclude, "I don't know". This would differ from saying, "It's NOT an angel".

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Interpretation? Some think that we create reality with our minds. They even use the quantum physics collapse of the wave function only by conscious observation as evidence. It makes it seem like the universe is in an infinite state of potential until our minds determine the state it will take.

    Maybe sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees.

    BTS

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    It just seems that he asserts that Dawkins wouldn't examine the facts/evidence. I think that notion would be offensive to a scientist.

    Dawkins may be a scientist, but he is also a human being subject to all the flaws inherent to that. That is like saying, "he can't do evil, he is a Christian". Yet Christians violate their code and scientists fall short of the dispassionate observers they want to be--especially if there is wealth or fame or power involved. Just like the rest of us.

    If he were unable to explain the angel via measurable data, honesty would demand that he conclude, "I don't know". This would differ from saying, "It's NOT an angel".

    I have read and watched Dawkins a lot. Somehow, I do not find this believable regading him. I think that Dawkins would sooner believe he had lost his mind than entertain that he had witnessed evidence of the supernatural.

    BTS

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