God ordered abortions?

by Julie 35 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Skeptic

  Julie,

  Wow! That line of reasoning is brillant. I never saw it before, but now that you explained it, it is crystal clear. A very powerful argument indeed.

  Funny, fundies are often against abortion, but they don't mind their God killing babies already out of the womb. Or older child. No problem with killing kids, just don't kill the unborn.

  Also, the line of reasoning used by anti-abortionists is false. They are against the killing of "innocents who have no say in the matter". Yet, fundies are often the ones who are very pro-war. Yet war kills many innocents. Do these people seriously think that no young, completely innocent children were killed in WWII? War always kills some innocents. These fundies have little idea of how the real world works.

  So, if they are against innocent people being killed, they had to be against war. Or at least make war a last resort.

  Anyway, enough of my raving. I sent you an email, using the address provided here.

  Take Care Julie,

  Richard Nazar/Skeptic
• 

  Skeptic

  Julie,

  You mean no fundie has tried telling you that God waited until there was no unborn children in the entire land before having all of the inhabitants slaughtered? You know, by doing a miracle or something. "With God, nothing is impossible." I wonder if any fundie would be that desparate or gullible. :)

  Remember when God killed all of the firstborn in Egypt? Yep, He made certain not to kill the unborn, but then wipes of all of those innocent babies just because He is pissed at the Pharoah. What a great guy, eh?

  Richard
• 

  Julie

  Hey everyone,

  No need to apologize Six, I know it's one of *those* topics it's cool. So long as we don't get into the usual bloodbath on the topic I am happy.

  Richard, old friend,

  Thanks for your kind words, as I mentioned it occurred to me during another discussion.

  You said:

  You mean no fundie has tried telling you that God waited until there was no unborn children in the entire land before having all of the inhabitants slaughtered? You know, by doing a miracle or something. "With God, nothing is impossible." I wonder if any fundie would be that desparate or gullible. :)

  lol! No, haven't heard that one yet. Actually, the series of e-mails this was brought up in, I asked questions regarding the methods of bringing up children to learn and strive for goodness etc.(using non-fear inspiring methods as God does in the bible), and then asked about all the unborn children who were slaughtered during the God-ordered massacres? Isn't that as bad as abortion? Guess what I got in reply? "So did you read that book I suggested yet?" How's that for honest discussion with a believer? Then they wonder why you don't want to bother anymore....

  Good to hear from you my friend, I'll be talking to you soon.

  Thanks to all for your thoughts on the matter everyone. There are many thoughtful, beautiful folks here.

  Warm regards,
  Julie
• 

  Rex B13

  Hi Julie,
  You ask such pointed questions and that shows a strong mind and genuine interest in your topic. As a Christian who believes as you said, I must tell you that there are three possible answers according to a Christian's view of scripture.

  1) God ordered the destruction of certain tribes or nations who had been forewarned well in advance. As God, He has the right to take the lives of those whom He has created and in fact, every one of us lives only as long as God allows us to. I could go on for pages with this in an apologetic fashion. (Literal, inerrant)

  2) Israel was justifying it's own actions but attributing them to God. (critical)

  3) This is not a literal act of God but a instructional story about God's wrath. Liberal Christianity will point out that this does not line up with the revelation of Jesus Christ (in their opinion) as described in the gospel accounts. (inspired, non-literal)

  The sovereignty of an almighty God cannot be in question, otherwise He is not almighty. Even Satan has to seek permission on how far he can take acts of cruelty with humanity. God by definition has to be ALL of His divine attributes; love, mercy, justice, holiness, vengeance, etc...He doesn't have to give us reasons and we cannot see the big picture, nor even 1% of the big picture. His "thoughts are not our thoughts" as the Psalmist says.
  "God loved Jacob but hated Esau." "I will show mercy on whom I show mercy."

  JWs not only try to rationalize these things but they also refuse to admit that man has an immortal soul, as every other major religion believes. We are a higher creation that exists within a physical body, therefore this life is only a small part of our timeless existence. We are all just passing through as actors on a stage called earth.
  See ya later, sweets.
  Rex
• 

  Skeptic

  Hi, Rex,

  It is nice to see various Christian interpretations. You are putting your knowledge of both fundamentalist and liberal Christianity to good use.

  1) God ordered the destruction of certain tribes or nations who had been forewarned well in advance. As God, He has the right to take the lives of those whom He has created and in fact, every one of us lives only as long as God allows us to. I could go on for pages with this in an apologetic fashion. (Literal, inerrant)

  Then Julie's point still stands. God performed the equilavent of abortion on a large scale.

  2) Israel was justifying it's own actions but attributing them to God. (critical)

  This is the most sensible explaination.

  If the Bible is to be mankind's holy book, then this still supports Julie's position, as our holy book still shows God committing abortion on a grand scale.

  3) This is not a literal act of God but a instructional story about God's wrath. Liberal Christianity will point out that this does not line up with the revelation of Jesus Christ (in their opinion) as described in the gospel accounts. (inspired, non-literal)

  Then Julie's point still stands. God performed the equilavent of abortion on a large scale, if only in illustration.

  The sovereignty of an almighty God cannot be in question, otherwise He is not almighty. Even Satan has to seek permission on how far he can take acts of cruelty with humanity.

  So, God gave Satan permission to be cruel to humanity? That makes God responsible for ALL of the evil on earth. That makes God guilty of "crimes against humanity". What does that say about God?

  God by definition has to be ALL of His divine attributes; love, mercy, justice, holiness, vengeance, etc...He doesn't have to give us reasons and we cannot see the big picture, nor even 1% of the big picture. His "thoughts are not our thoughts" as the Psalmist says.
  "God loved Jacob but hated Esau." "I will show mercy on whom I show mercy."

  I'm glad my thoughts are not the same as His. I would never do genocide. What love is shown in genocide? What mercy is shown, esp. to the children?

  And again, Julie's point still stands. God performed the equilavent of abortion on a large scale.

  Rex, your post completely supports Julie's position.

  Richard
• 

  Grout

  Mort Sahl has the right take, I think:

  Democrats don't want anyone to be born -- what with abortion and birth control etc. But if you actually manage to be born, they'll make sure you're taken care of for the rest of your life.

  Republicans want everyone to be born, as long as you promise not to live long enough to collect on your Social Security.
  --
  Chip Salzenberg: Free-Floating Agent of Chaos
• 

  outonalimb

  Julie,
  Interesting indeed. The question does perplex, believers and non-believers alike. Believers have blind faith, and too easily accept
  atrocities from the OT as gods will, and will not question. The fear of eternal damnation must be too great for them. Of course non-believers can see the ridiculousness of the situation, and can choose
  without fear of religous retribution, "if there for it or agin it".
  (abortion that is)
  Blind faith is the only argument for the whole bible, not just this issue. Unless someone can prove me wrong.

  Mark
• 

  Skeptic

  lol! No, haven't heard that one yet. Actually, the series of e-mails this was brought up in, I asked questions regarding the methods of bringing up children to learn and strive for goodness etc.(using non-fear inspiring methods as God does in the bible), and then asked about all the unborn children who were slaughtered during the God-ordered massacres? Isn't that as bad as abortion? Guess what I got in reply? "So did you read that book I suggested yet?" How's that for honest discussion with a believer? Then they wonder why you don't want to bother anymore....

  It is worse than abortion. Responses like you got serve only to undermine the Christian position. Too many Christians jump into debates like this and show that they can't follow a logical chain of thought. They make Christianity seem like a "leave your brain at the door" religion. That's what happens when you walk by faith too much...

  I eagerly look forward to corresponding with you by email, my dear friend.

  Richard
• 

  Rex B13

  Hi Julie,
  An analogy may be in order. As you know, our own race's rebellion has left us separated from God because of His holiness and righteousness. We are as such, objects of wrath until we take advantage of His mercifull grace through the propitiation of Jesus sacrifice, literally God dying AS us to save us from His own judgement.
  We are left to 'fend for ourselves' (within His permission) as are Satan and his cohorts (within His permission). God already has a plan in place, knowing what the cost will be to have true 'free will' individuals to love Him for who He is.
  We make the choices in this world and we suffer the effects of bad decisions by our leaders and ourselves. God can and has stepped in at the right moments to 'tweak' events in order to lessen the overall evil that could have happened had He not done so.

  At the end of WW2 our government faced a decision. We could either destroy the Japanese religion and their will to fight or face the prospect of losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians (maybe millions, all told) and another year of war.
  The Japanese were even training their women and children to fight, they had proved they would even use suicide as a tactic, they had butchered most prisoners of war and untold numbers of civilians in conquered countries.
  We chose to use the atom bomb, and had to do it twice. People died horrible deaths but let me ask you, how many were saved in hindsight? We also fire bombed German cities to break their will to fight. These countries BROUGHT THIS ON THEMSELVES, yes, even their children!

  What price is too great to save the whole world from divine judgement? Are a few souls in Palestine taken home to God (as the innocent children were!) in order to bring the messianic line to fruition too much to ask to bring whole world back into the graces of God.
  Look at this world and tell me that man can manage his own affairs, no thank you, God we don't need you. I believe that if not for divine intervention we would have busted our own planet back during the cold war.
  Can you see now that the WTC bombing may have awakened the world to the terrorists threat BEFORE they got a working nuclear bomb to use on innocents?
  Can you see the great good that has been brought about despite the deaths of 911, the outpouring of charity and togetherness, the world working together to root out real, evil, religious fundamentalism?
  I hope I have expressed my thoughts clearly.
  Rex
• 

  Rex B13

  Hi Richard,
  Perhaps you need to go over my reply again. You missed the 'sovereignty of God' reasoning (or ignored it) completely. You also failed to acknowledge that we have very much chosen our own fates by our own free will, as has Satan.
  You are obviously either blinded to, ignorant of or intentionally ignore the reasoning that the apostle Paul uses in Romans. If you want an explanation of election/free will just look up 'Calvinism' in your favorite search program.
  I see that you have not taken my advice to read either "Mere Christianity" by Lewis or "Basic Christianity" by Stott. Neither of them are 'fundys' as you would describe them.
  You jump gleefully to agreeemnt with Julie's questions even before you reason out the valid response I gave.
  Rex