God punishes to the 3rd and 4th Generation! How nice!

by Number1Anarchist 160 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AllTimeJeff

    (1) Should God punish liars Jeff?

    (2) Should our courts punish liars?

    Jeffs Answers

    1) God should punish liars once he stops the suffering of billions and explain himself to the world. I am sure once liars see god manifest and make himself clear, god will not need to punish the repentent. Instead, he will likely forgive those who lied without realizing that god existed. No punishment needed. All god has to do is show up.

    2) Courts of various governments around the world will punish liars to the extent that their laws allow, and with the understanding that their unique laws define a lie. No one is immune from this.

  • Perry


    A: God should punish liars once he stops the suffering of billions.

    I'm glad we agree that God has the right to punish wrongdoers. The bible agrees with your order of events as well. Most everyone's soul will wait for trial in a place called hell. After Jesus Thousand Year Reign ( stops the suffering of billions) each soul will be united with it's body (resurected) and stand trial at the Great White Throne Judgment. Everything will be legal, no mistakes in evidence will occur.

    I get the feeling from your answer that you are still not satisfied with God's method of stopping suffering ie. judgement and re-birth. What you likely meant to say was that God has no right to judge until he removes suffering. Of course this is hypocritical because our governmental courts are not held to such a standard.

    Furthermore, how would you propose he do that? Would you be happy with God removing our ability to choose? That way it would be impossible for the choices of some to cause suffering to others. What would life be like without the ability to choose? I think God is definitely pro-choice.

    God's method is far more costlier: Preserve choice and defeat sin (wrong choices) at the same time. This he did on the Cross. People can now choose Jesus himself to receive the punishment that is due them. This makes peace with God. After that they can receive the spirit that is perfect and doesn't sin. After that, people can choose each day to crucify the flesh and let the spirit do the leading, or they can choose not to. After the new birth, people can see with their own experience the difference between allowing the flesh to lead and allowing the spirit to lead. After a few short years people will have gathered hundreds if not thousands of such comparisons. This makes for a very well equipped person to distinguish right from wrong. Choice is both preserved and wrong choices (sin) is defeated on the battlefield of human experience rather that the ivory towers of philosophers. It is an ingenious plan.

    The amazing choices that God has offered man are unique. Angels certainly didn't get this. Not one of us need be punished unless they just want to .

    Isn't that good news Jeff?

    I don't what would prevent everyone from, right now, praying to Jesus to take the punishment that is due him or her. Ask Jehovah to do whatever is necessary in you so that you can be born again so that you can have the power of choice, free from the effects of justice (punishment). No fear, just love. Just learning from the eternal One.

  • AllTimeJeff


    It would be good news if your god showed up. A lesser god "punishes", a more powerful god would heal. If god exists in some manner that you describe, I doubt very seriously that punishment is in order. Frankly, (using analogies common in the Christian world) if a child misbehaves in the absence of a parent, the parent is held responsible. From a theistic point of view (which I do not subscribe to) god has not been around, leaving man to his devices. HE is the one responsible, a sin of omision.

    Obviously, I do not subscribe to your beliefs Perry. And my taking things from a theistic point of view was for your benefit, as you for whatever reason, do not seem to want to argue this from a non theistic point of view. Thus, I speak of god for the sake of discussion, not because I believe. Remember, you said:

    Note: These are simple questions. You have already assummed the existence of God for this discussion. (italics mine)

    You then take my premised answers and run with it and say

    I'm glad we agree that God has the right to punish wrongdoers. The bible agrees with your order of events as well.

    With respect, we do not agree. And you merely subscribe to an interpretation of the bible's "order of events". Other Christians do not agree with you. Have you been asking me questions just to look for something we "agree" on?

    Allow me please, to offer a critique of your methodology when it comes to arguing your position.

    I have written several times about a peculiar habit the Governing Body engages in. Which is, they do not entertain questions that they do not raise. The only questions they answer are the ones they raise. They have an agenda. Outside questions regarding their positions and interpretations do not serve the interests of their agenda.

    As you are well aware, JW's are taught when in conversation with householders to "flip" conversations by asking questions, which serves to change the subject. The reason of course is simple: They aren't their for a 2 way conversation, but to preach.

    I find the same pattern with you. I do not in any way question your motives. Sincerity though is a poor litmus test for truth and fact.

    You have frequently taken the "devils advocate" role, raising questions in response to questions posed to you. If you doubt this, I will simply allow any reader to review this thread, and I will let that stand.

    I don't wish to charecterize why you do this, I am simply saying that this method you use shares much in common with the aggressive indoctrination techniques championed by JW's.

    Why is this relevant? Because like JW's, it is my view that instead of offering an intellectually honest account for your beliefs, including an acknowledgment of what you believe as opposed to what you can prove (hellfire being a big one) you choose to try to flip the conversation to try to get those who don't believe you on the defensive, thus sparing you the need to quantify your beliefs.

    I have spend much of this thread answering your questions. The quotes I provide in this response from you prove that you are more then willing to cherry pick responses to support your beliefs.

    I have much respect for theists who are willing to acknowledge that there are a few things they must take on faith, because they can't prove them. I also appreciate an acknowledgement from these theists that they understand why others can't feel as they do.

    In another thread, you spoke of a very personal experience you claim with your god. At best, that must be good enough for you. Nonetheless, you can't transfer what that did for you to others. If god did that for you, then only god can do that for someone else. At best, you can only make theological arguements. While I respect your beliefs, I cannot be persuaded simply because you tell me so.

    This thread discussed at length your views of punishment from god. As I understand it, your basic arguement is that god does indeed have the right to punish to enforce his laws and standards. I disagree with you for all the reasons I have written previously.

  • Perry

    A lesser god "punishes", a more powerful god would heal.

    I don't think you read my post. You are making God's argument here. God heals through the cross and the re-birth, thus eliminating the need for direct punishment and the elimination of choice. The least you could do is try and understand what God is offering before you reject it.

    You have a different way? Let's hear it. I keep hearing variations of your theme above from atheists. Please explain how God could prevent suffering without doing away with "choice"? (other than the method he is offering in the Scriptures as I explained in my last post)

  • AllTimeJeff
    You are making God's argument here. God heals through the cross and the re-birth, thus eliminating the need for direct punishment and the elimination of choice. The least you could do is try and understand what God is offering before you reject it.

    Perry, I did read it, you didn't explain or offer proof as to the merits of this reasoning. In addition, I have researched many form of the ransom and how it is taught, not just from the JW point of view.

    You have asserted, but not proven, that God heals through the cross. There is no evidence for this subjective belief.

    You have stated that God offers this. So far Perry, you are the only one who is offering this. God has offered me nothing. You are putting words in his mouth.

    You are assuming that God will do as you suggest. Why should I believe that?

    I don't have a different way. It isn't needed. I am not making Gods arguement here.

    God, being so all powerful, can talk to me just as easily as he talked to you, correct?

    I will wait on God then.

  • Perry


    I just assumed that you did not read the post because what you offered as a practical response from the Creator is exactly what he is offering:

    A lesser god "punishes", a more powerful god would heal.

    Now you have already agreed that God has the right to punish. Like governments, there is a responsibility to punish. But, He arranged things so that both could be done without shorting the other (punishment ~ healing). In other words, if all there was is punishment, then healing would be impossible. If there was no punishment there would be no need for healing, that term would be meaningless. There would be no order, chaos would reign.

    These are biblical doctrines you can research for yourself here:



  • Perry

    Ooops.... hitting too many buttons here.

  • Perry

    Atonement and Sanctification are fundamental doctrines taught by the Apostles. They flesh out your exact proposition.

  • AllTimeJeff

    I have already read up on this. Thanks anyway.

  • Satanus

    Alltimejeff dismembers perry. Perry's parts don't realize that they are little wiggling separate pieces.


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