USA AUTO MAKERS SCAPEGOAT?

by Sunnygal41 66 Replies latest social current

  • beksbks
    beksbks
    Interesting enough this is done to prove that you are a liability, you cost us as employers..sad really, since the only worth an employee has in the workplace in these cases is his manual labor, his back...and instead of treating these employees as assets..we create systems that cast them as liabilites to us and therefore in many ways - both expendable and worthless. sammieswife.

    This is a big part of what is wrong with America today. That and the idea that no government is good government. It's Reaganomics and that ideology thirty years later. Younger people who have grown up hearing nothing else for 30 years buy it hook line and sinker. This is the struggle Americans need to reengage in. No CEO would have a dime, if it weren't for all the people under him. I swear it looks more like old England every day.

    This is not new money by the way, what is being proposed is a pittance of the 700 billion package already approved. And it's a low interest loan as well. Normally, they would go to banks themselves, but the banking industry is in the turlet. The opposition by Mitt and his cronies, is Union busting on a major scale. They want them to fail, so we will all be begging for 8.00 an hour jobs. And start to like it! Just like the two dollar gas.

  • moshe
    moshe

    I can give an opinion on this topic. I have worked for Chrysler almost 15 years. I am retiring early on November 30th. Here is one headline you don't see.

    "US Government decides to give financial help to all foreign auto manufacturers" But this is what will happen, if the Detroit 3 are allowed to fail due to the sudden reversal in our credit markets. After they close, Toyota and Honda will have a huge financial boost to their homeland economies. Meanwhile our economy will tank and 3 million jobs will dissappear within a couple years. You think a Dow of 8200 is bad, it will drop to maybe 5000 and wipe out more of the retirment 401's of just the ones who are crying for the Detroit 3 to get their just desserts. reality check? Auto workers could work for a wage of just $5.00 a day like in the days of the Ford model T and the cost of a new car would drop by maybe $3000. Chrysler has not hired any new workers since 1999 and they have sold almost 2 million cars a year, so if that $2000 pension cost per car was accurate they would have deposited 40 billion dollars during that time. That would give the 40,000 hourly workers who are left around 1 million dollars each. Does this make sense? Durning that 10 year period they would have been credited a pension of about $500/mo. Right now $75,000 will buy a lifetime annunity of about $400/mo, so the company would have needed only about 100,000 credited per employee, not 1 million dollarsto pay that $500 of pension increse. Allowing for a normal 7% increase in growth per year in the company pension plan they would only need a profit of $200 per vehicle to cover a worker's pension, not $2000. However, I would not argue that medical costs could be over 1000 per car.

    Almost no workers at Toyota have reached a normal retirement age, why? They get used up and discarded- unable to do assigned work- Unless a worker can schmooze his or her way into a light duty inspection job they will almost assuredly be gone within 10 years from the assmbly line. That is what the workers at Toyota are just beginning to realize.

    Unlike a pension, Chrysler did not set aside extra money for retiree medical care and has been utilizing pay as you go, to cover these huge run-ups in medical care for active and retirees. We received no increases in our base pay for this 4 year contract to pay for our medical costs. We gave up cost of living increses to pay for retiree medical care. A separate fund is being set up from these cost savings to cover most retiree medical costs. Also, retirees are now required to begin paying for their medical insurance. Autoworkers as a whole are not a heathy group due in part to all the mandatory overtime- six days a week and 9-10 hrs a day and hard repetitive assembly line work.. In 11 years from 1994-2005 I was forced to work 440 Saturdays and missed out on a lot of my kids life. Yes, the money was good, but it was not easy or healthy working in a foundry environment. Young people today will not work those types of gritty jobs or give up their weekend free time, it seems.

    GM is the largest private carrier of medical insurance and your local hospital might depend on them, and Ford and Chrysler, to cover their base expenses in order to make up for everyone who does not have insurance. Did you get that? Thanks to the very good insurance payments provided by the Detroit three, your medical system has had guaranteed profits and has used that good coverage to subsidize the poor insurance- or no insurance all the rest of the companies have. Hospitals will begin going bankrupt when 3 million auto-related workers lose their jobs and stop paying for their medical care- let caesar pay for it.

    I have to wonder how any senator can criticize the CEO's of the Detroit 3, seeing as how Senators have allowed underfunded SS and Medicare trust funds to just keep on going in the hole.Congress is directly responsible for this subprime mortgage mess and needs to do something to ensure our whole economy doesn't go down the toilet from a failure of the Detroit 3. Do you think China will build our military vehicles for us should we have a WW3? We have to have the industrial base supplied by our domestic car industry to protect our nation. Have you looked at the civil service retirement benefits govt workers receive? Paid for by taxpayers who had no say in how generous they are.

    Just think what a Dow of 5000 will mean to everyone and the corresponding drop in home values, then the drop in collected property taxes, then the cuts in government funding and finally the smug firefighter, policeman and teacher don't drive a Big 3 car will find themselves unemployed.

    The wallstreet crooks who caused this subprime mess and got a $700 billion bailout were afraid that the average joe taxpayer would demand criminal indictments and jail time for them. They are so happy to have diverted your attention away from them and onto the UAW autoworkers. They might just avoid going to jail now and profit from the collapse of our economy by selling stocks short, which is a sure bet for them once the Detroit 3 are out of business.

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    Thanks for that real world view Moshe, you and I usually do not agree. Health care costs are huge in this country, it's obscene. Rather than blame the Unions for negotiating health care for current and former employees, why aren't we making demands of the Health Care industry? That's some reform that we need big time in this country. Why aren't they being asked to pony up, along with ALL CEO's across the board?

    If they go into chapter 11 as advocated by Mitt, who buys up whats left? The Chinese? How does that help America?

  • watson
    watson

    As usual, I'm probably over simplifing here, but, we all have known for many years that the American auto industry was in serious trouble. The only reason they are still in business is that we as consumers had to have big showy vehicles to run down to 7 Eleven with for a soda. Of course we didn't earn enough to really afford these beauts, so we mortgaged our artificially inflated homes and bought that car. While we were at it, we took trips we couldn't afford, ate out 4/5/6/7 times a week, and charged up those credit cards. We couldn't pay them down so we used some of the credit line on the homestead to clear 'em up. If we couldn't do that, well heck, we just filed chapter 11 and took care of that.

    Not all of us, but many, have been irresponsible in our spending. Who's fault is it? I'm sure we can find some way to blame it on the government.

    Someday, the price will have to be paid, and it isn't going to be painless.

    (I guess this won't lift anyone's spirits)

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    Here's the thing Watson, supply side economics dictates that we keep spending, whether we can afford it or not. We used to make decent wages, demand product, and then work to provide it. That's gone all wonky over the last thirty years. At the same time, CEO pay has grown over the average workers pay by over 400%, why? I mean seriously, I have no illusions that the janitor is going to make anything close to the Chief, but 400+%??? We are upside down, just like those mortgages. It's been a house of cards for 30 years, and yes it is coming due. I say give the auto industry that loan they want out of the 700 billion, and then restructure the hell out of the top. Leave the workers alone.

  • SacrificialLoon
    SacrificialLoon

    If they go into bankruptcy I think it will be chapter 7, liquidation. They likely won't be able to get debtor-in-posession financing in this market, and I think they know it which is why they're begging for tax money.

    I guess we'll need Billy Joel to write a song about Detroit. :(

  • watson
    watson

    I would be for the loan, but I don't think that restructuring the top is going to help the industry in the long run. NOW, if the government requires as a condition of the loan that a percentage of profits be focused on alternative fuel technology, then cool. Deadlines, etc. Hold the feet to the fire, then it might be ok to loan. If the loan just puts off the inevitable, then I say, it's time for pain.

  • sammielee24
    sammielee24

    Almost no workers at Toyota have reached a normal retirement age, why? They get used up and discarded- unable to do assigned work- Unless a worker can schmooze his or her way into a light duty inspection job they will almost assuredly be gone within 10 years from the assmbly line. That is what the workers at Toyota are just beginning to realize.

    Last I heard was that most of these employee's want unions in there - Bush policies have threatened and repressed those rights but now they will be restored with Obama as president.

    I worked for years in one of the factories that supplied seat belts to car manufacturers. The town had 3 businesses that all served the car industry. When they pulled out and went to Mexico under the free trade agreement - the whole town went down. Thousands lost their jobs and when that happens, it pulls down every other service including your schools, hospitals, doctors, stores, shopping, transit..all of it.

    People should understand that you cannot keep comparing other countries and their car industry to the USA because your health care, governmental, environmental and other laws are not the same. Today the Japanese auto makers announced they are scaling back in the USA with layoffs and the Germans are very worried about the industry there. No doubt Germany will step in and help because the vehicle industry is a major business there. China is already talking assistance in that country.

    Maybe we should be putting more value on those who produce tangible assets in our system and instead of looking at the figures on Wall Street as an indicator...look at Main Street first. sammieswife.

  • LDH
    LDH

    I think you all are answering the wrong question. "Who" is guilty.

    It is not the workers in the factory, they do as they are told. All of these 'bailouts' are the result of decision made by Corporate Board of Directors. The guy building the car has no choice what car rolls off the line. Are you kidding me?

    These companies should be bailed out to save the average joe and the ripple effect it will have on our economy. The Senate nixed it, and what a mistake.

    I can only hope they survive long enough for Barack to make unilateral changes. Bailouts come at the expense of criminal charges of those who MADE THE DECISIONS that have led us down this road.

    Don't believe me? In September the story broke that Ford decided not to release its 65 MPG clean-diesel vehicle here in the states. Instead, they're releasing it in EUROPE and MEXICO.

    If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

    Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

    Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.

    Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."

    None of this is stopping European and Japanese automakers, which are betting they can jump-start the U.S. market with new diesel models. Mercedes-Benz by next year will have three cars it markets as "BlueTec." Even Nissan (NSANY) and Honda, which long opposed building diesel cars in Europe, plan to introduce them in the U.S. in 2010. But Ford, whose Fiesta ECOnetic compares favorably with European diesels, can't make a business case for bringing the car to the U.S.

    TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT

    First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.

    Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.

    The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5

    It's not that I specifically want this car available here, but we as consumers need to look at the process...how is it that CERTAIN cars end up on the showroom floor, while other cars do not? The Big Three blame us consumers and say "We don't want it." Well I wonder have they ever heard of the Prius, which 5 years ago no one knew what the hell it was, now everyone wants one!

    The answer is that the direction the company takes is determined by the Corporate Directors and the Board of Directors, whose responsibility is.....read this carefully......to turn a profit for their shareholders, regardless of how it happens.

    Uncontrolled capitalism has driven us to the brink of disaster.

  • beksbks
    beksbks
    NOW, if the government requires as a condition of the loan that a percentage of profits be focused on alternative fuel technology, then cool. Deadlines, etc. Hold the feet to the fire, then it might be ok to loan.

    Already in the works!! As a matter of fact, the dang Pubs are trying to screw that already. IMHO.

    The White House and congressional Republicans instead called on Democrats to sign on to a GOP plan to divert a $25 billion loan program created by Congress in September — designed to help the companies develop more fuel-efficient vehicles — to meet the auto giants’ immediate financial needs.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27800570

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