U.S. Auto Industry deserves the grave they dug for themselves

by drew sagan 76 Replies latest jw friends

  • beksbks
    beksbks
    Do we let the companies fall? Add 3 million more to the unemployment rolls? Board up more store windows? Cancel out college for thousands of our young people? Set up more food banks and welfare rolls in order to cope? Those unemployed auto workers won't be flying or driving to a vacation spot. They won't be spending in restaurants or dry cleaners or theaters. They won't be buying new clothes or seeing a doctor when they should. Dentists and Optometrists won't be scheduled. It's a ripple effect that hits every sector.

    Sammie!! This is basically my reason for being a Democrat, and supporting Unions. If the lower 95 aren't able to spend, aren't making a decent wage, it's all a house of cards. Which is exactly what we are seeing now. Real wages have dropped over the last 30 years, we have become the largest debtor nation in the world. And it's not just people living beyond their means, it's that their means are shrinking in real terms, and credit is the option. In my most humble opinion, the most important thing we can do in the coming years, is get wages for the bottom waaaaay up.

    I would ask folks like Burn, why they defend the oil companies right to make "profits", and site investors and retirement accounts, and yet are against this bail out, with exactly the same ramifications? The Oil companies have been getting subsidies for years. They have a huge role to play in the current state of the economy. They held the whole country over a barrel so to say. Why is that ok?

  • foreverfree
    foreverfree

    I'd be for a bailout ONLY WITH CONDITIONS

    1. Lower the god damn prices of the new vehicles for the next 5 years by at least 70% so more people can afford to buy the product. ( You know something is rediculously over priced if you gotta take out a loan over 5 years or so to buy it.)

    2. 10 year dead line to find an alternative fuel souce other than oil or they gotta pay back the bailout money at 120% interest.

    3. Go back to making the body of vehicles with metal instead of fiberglass. I never felt more safer in my metal "tank".

    Any other conditions someone can think of ?

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    Hill, I agree that management, and ........hmmmmm.......... entrenchment? Are no good. But workers in general have one power, and it's Unions. We've lost something like 50% of union jobs in this country in the last thirty years. That drives down wages across the board, which we can see if we look at the numbers. Who's to say if all the other Union jobs in this country hadn't been squashed, the auto makers wouldn't have customers now? Again, my main point in all my arguments on this subject, is that if the largest number of workers are making better wages, we all win. How many tubes of toothpaste, bars of soap, gallons of milk, lattes, burgers, etc etc, can the top 5 percent actually buy?? It's the crowd at the bottom consuming that makes it all work. And consuming with cash (wages), not credit! Ok, free trade is a major issue here too. We'll never compete with 9 cents an hour wages for WalMart junk.

    Argh, I've had hardly any sleep, and I'm drinking a lovely chardonnay, I hope I'm making my points semi clear.

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly
    But workers in general have one power, and it's Unions. We've lost something like 50% of union jobs in this country in the last thirty years. That drives down wages across the board, which we can see if we look at the numbers.~beks

    Agreed. Sounds like you read your Unions monthly Journal or newsletter.

    Now...go have a chat with your BA or Local President about "value added" and what that means.

    Our one "power" is the fact that we labor. Paradigms shift. 60 years ago, industrial manufacturing needed one thing for production-Bodies. If could organise the bodies you could control a commodity-labor. The value was the body and pair of hands connected to that body.

    Now days we do the same work with one person that used to take 10. Unions no longer have the "power" in the equation as a big chunk of membership is no longer needed. As the jobs changed most industrial unions fought those changes tooth and nail. Railroads kept fireman, brakemen and conductors on freight trains for years after the actual function of those jobs became obsolete.

    UAW resistied the concept of retraining and even negotiating tech jobs the felt would eliminate the "body" jobs. That caused a double- whammy for them...those jobs came into the plant anyway.. and were given to NON UNION CONTRACT labor. GM countered with a plan to long term lay off folks with seniority and never pushed to push any of the new jobs to in-house people.

    Simply put..the UAW never saw the need to control the Training and skill sets it's members could offer the employers... and fought any attemps by the BIG 3 to place any new ideas like self directed work teams etc in those plants.

    We watched Steelworkers do about the same at Dow Chem... worked good for me. They never could get the trades group to change ...made em compete for the work on the site against outside contractors. Good thing my Union (IBEW) invests in it's members... our contractors were able to underbid, manage costs and outwork those folks who "couldnt be replaced".

    The thing is ... manufacturing UNIONS find it real hard to come up with "value" added for members. They have to help the company create better ways to do things and bleed early at times so the problems can be cured. Things like senority, schedules, vactions, sick leave and retirement are about the only things you can really negotiate for in a plant... and all those things work against the margins of the company that tend to be slim anyway.

    Did I mention most exempt folks make way to much money for what they do to?

    Hill

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    added... look at the supply chain that feeds the UAW... from truck drivers to die-cast operators the lion's share of the supply labor pool is non union.... and it never has been.

    Most of the midwest that has relied on these satelite jobs for the BULK of their local economies have suffered the seasonal layoffs etc that compestated UAW members have to.

    Having lived in this area for many years (the Midwest) I can tell you the blue collar standard of living ....well lets just say I'd rather live in St Joe than anyplace in the Detroit Metro area... if that's a "better standard of living" based on Union Households you can have it.

    Beks... what union are you a member of?

    Hill

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Says it all.

    And Romney's NYT piece from yesterday:

    IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

    Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

    I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

    First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

    That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

    Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

    The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

    You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

    The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

    Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

    Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

    It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

    But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

    The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

    In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

    Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year’s Republican presidential nomination.

    BTS

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    Let me see if I got this right Burn.

    Mitt figures there aint no return in vacinatin' a dead calf after it shit itself to death with the scours? Sell the heifer to the highest bidder and see how she does with better managment?

    He seemed like a smart guy in March...maybe he is.

    ( i shook his dad's hand when I was a kid)

    Hill

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    Mitt figures there aint no return in vacinatin' a dead calf after it shit itself to death with the scours? Sell the heifer to the highest bidder and see how she does with better managment?

    Big 3 stock prices are so damned cheap right now the the UAW could probably buy them outright. Why don't they put their money where there mouth is?

    Let's face it, what these corps are going through now should have happened about 15 years ago, but the SUV frenzy saved them. The profit margin on those vehicled are what kept them afloat. They can't do that with small vehicles, the labor costs form too large a proportion of the cost of the final product and it becomes an outright loss. They are paying $73 an hour in labor costs, while the Japs are building cars in the South for $43. Simple arithmetic.

    BTS

  • hillbilly
    hillbilly

    Big 3 stock prices are so damned cheap right now the the UAW could probably buy them outright. Why don't they put their money where there mouth is? ~BTS

    A few years back I was working a staff job at a major midwestern Gas and Electric Utility. The stock and fallen to about $4 a share and the credit on Wall Street for this out fit was zippo.

    I was talking to a few guys at work about the same thing. This outfit was represented by a scabby union known as the Utility Workers of America on top of being infected with the eastern Michigan UAW flu.

    We figured about 150 folks could get a second mortgage on their houses and buy up 51% of the stock... it was that cheap.

    One of the Union guys I spoke with about this said to me ( I shit you not) ... "If we did that we wouldnt have anybody to bitch at".... like that would be a bad thing.

    Check your FPL stock BTS... I know when I was a member of IBEW 1191 our system council held quite a bit of company stock. If they dont make money we dont work... some Unions "get it".

    Hill

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    Hey Hill

    I am not a member of a Union, I just happen to believe very strongly in the principal. I used to be an assistant manager at a major bookstore, you've heard of them. At that time, there was a lot of talk about the possibility of a union. My job of course, because I was "the man", was to make sure that any such discussions were not possible. We had a huge poster board in the break room, people were very creative and literary. I had to have it taken down, because of the possibility that Union talk would find it's way onto it. That's my personal experience on "the other side". I'm sure you are aware of how hard companies like Wal Mart have fought to keep unions out. I'm just saying, that if those jobs did have unions/higher wages, the people in those jobs would be buying more books, cars, widgets etc. and things would continue to float.

    As for the auto industry, there are so many factors in this failure. How about oil lobbyists fighting to keep mileage standards low? Of course if the auto makers had been thinking ahead, they would have put more into smaller more fuel efficient cars. But again, most Americans weren't interested in smaller cars until the gas situation started to hurt. And yes, I heard someone talking about the amount of benefits the American guys are making compared to others, something like 77.00 compared to 44.00. But the other countries in that comparison, have universal health care, we do not. Nothing is going to really put this right, until we do something about trade.

    Oh and I agree with you one hundred and fifty percent on this one

    Did I mention most exempt folks make way to much money for what they do to?

    I was driving down the highway yesterday, and noticing how crappy our roads are. There's a ton of work to be done out there. That's a lot of jobs. Make those CEO's quit causing housing bubbles and skyrocketing oil prices with their speculation money, tax heck out of 'em, and put a few thousand people to work on those roads!

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