Scholarly support for 607bce ?

by wobble 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • still_in74
    still_in74
    Also remember the WTS used to claim it was 606 BC. It was not until the 1940's that they started to say 607, once they removed the year 0 from their calculations.

    this fact helps us to understand how the WTS has "decisevely" and "accurately" understood the date of Jerusalems destruction eventhough no other scholar in the world claims to be closer than 1 year (586/587)

    They didnt understand them decisevely either. 1914 came from a miscalcualtion, just like 1798, 1873, 1874 etc.

    http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-of-606-to-607-bce-in.html - read this great blog on this

    long story short - until they figured out a way to keep 1914 they just disregarded it.

    It took them 40 years to peice the lie together to get the R&F to believe it and they ate it right up!

  • Awakened at Gilead
    Awakened at Gilead

    scholarly + JW = oxymoron

  • besty
    besty

    The most common response will be 607 agrees with Biblical chronology whereas 587 is from 'secular' chronology.

    What these brainwashed idiots do not grasp is that there is no such thing as 'Biblical' chronology. The Bible doesn't have absolute dates in it anywhere. The dating system that 587 and 607 are part of is secular by definition.

    If you want to challenge a JW suggest to them that you will prove 587 is the corrrect date using WTS literature if they will accept their challenge to prove 607 using secular literature.

    The trick is that you can do it, whereas they can't. Should baffle them into taking a look at the WTS literature you are going to provide them with....

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx

    http://user.tninet.se/~oof408u/fkf/english/chronology.htm

  • wobble
    wobble

    Thanks to all who have replied,all your comments are very helpfull !

    Thanks Besty ,for your idea on the"Challenge", and kindly posting the links, I think this guy will accept and maybe start thinking,I do hope so,he is a really nice guy and great fun,never been a studier though and just spouts the usual Dumbdub answers.(without a knowledge of what he is SUPPOSED to believe !)

    Recently,from being a,meeting missing,social member he has got very active and has been appointed as a Mincer.

    I gave him some other stuff to think on,but this may be an oblique way of getting under the 'postate radar.

    Many tanks again,

    Love

    Wobble

  • startingover
    startingover

    Besty, great challenge!

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday
    Rolf Furuli, Neil Mc Fadzen, Philip Couture, John Albu

    If I may ask on these supporters, is the reason they believe in 607 BCE based on the 70 years prediction in the bible and that the bible HAS to be right on this, or is it based on archeological findings?

  • civicsi00
    civicsi00

    The Gentile Times Reconsidered by Carl Olof Jonsson.

    'Nuff said.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    The evidence against the 607 date is overwhelming:

    http://www.commentarypress.com/Detail/eng_gentile.html

    This is not an easy book to read, but I feel it was worthwhile.

  • still_in74
    still_in74
    If I may ask on these supporters, is the reason they believe in 607 BCE based on the 70 years prediction in the bible and that the bible HAS to be right on this, or is it based on archeological findings?

    Yes. This is the WTS argument exactly. Regardless what anyone says, the bible says 70 years so it must be 607 and not to worry about "20 years or so"

    The irony of this is that 537 BCE is a secular date. Thus the WTS says the bible trumps secular teaching. But the "biblically accurate" date of 607 is founded on secular teachings.

    See article below.........

    ***

    g725/8pp.27-28WhenDidBabylonDesolateJerusalem?***

    "Your

    WordIsTruth"

    When

    DidBabylonDesolateJerusalem?

    SECULAR historians usually give the year 586 B.C.E. as the correct date for the desolation of Jerusalem. Why, then, do Jehovah’s Christian witnesses speak of this event as occurring in 607 B.C.E.? It is because of confidence in what the Bible says about the duration of Jerusalem’s lying desolate.

    The Scriptures assign a period of seventy years to the desolation of Judah and Jerusalem. After describing the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem, 2 Chronicles 36:21 reports: "All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years." By means of his prophet Jeremiah, Jehovah had declared: "All this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years."—Jer. 25:11.

    Was this really a period of seventy literal years? Yes, that is the way the prophet Daniel, toward the close of the period of Jerusalem’s desolation, understood it, saying: "I myself, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of the years concerning which the word of Jehovah had occurred to Jeremiah the prophet, for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years." (Dan. 9:2) Note that here Daniel speaks of the "number of the years" of devastation as seventy. Surely he could not have done so if the seventy years were symbolic or an inflated round number.

    Additional evidence is provided in the book of Zechariah. We read: "When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?" (Zech. 7:5; 1:12) The way this question is framed, with reference to specific months, certainly indicates that a period of seventy literal years was involved.

    That the Jews in ancient times understood the seventy years as being literal and involving a total devastation of the land is apparent from the works of Josephus, a Jewish historian. In his AntiquitiesoftheJews, Book X, chap. 9, par. 7, he tells that "all Judea and Jerusalem, and the temple, continued to be a desert for seventy years."

    When the Israelites were able to return to Judah and Jerusalem, that desolation ended. There is general agreement that Babylon fell to Cyrus on October 5/6, 539 B.C.E. From the Scriptural record at 2 Chronicles 36:21-23 and Ezra 3:1-3, which tells of Cyrus’ decree liberating the Jews and their return to their homeland, the indications are that the Jews arrived back in their homeland around the early part of October of 537 B.C.E., ending the seventy years of desolation. Jerusalem must, therefore, have been destroyed seventy years earlier, in 607 B.C.E.

    Various attempts to harmonize the date 586 B.C.E. with what the Bible says are therefore unsatisfactory. None of such attempts fit the Bible’s testimony that Jerusalem and Judah lay desolateforseventyyears.

    The 586 B.C.E. date is based primarily on what is known as "Ptolemy’s Canon," which assigns a total of 87 years to the Babylonian dynasty beginning with Nabopolassar and ending with Nabonidus at the fall of Babylon in 539 B.C.E. According to this Canon, the five kings that ruled during this period were Nabopolassar (21 years), Nebuchadnezzar (43 years), Evil-merodach (2 years), Neriglissar (4 years) and Nabonidus (17 years). In line with the number of years thus assigned to each ruler, Jerusalem’s desolation in Nebuchadnezzar’s eighteenth year (nineteenth year if counting from his "accession year") would fall in 586 B.C.E.—2 Ki. 25:8; Jer. 52:29.

    But how dependable is Ptolemy’s Canon? In his book TheMysteriousNumbersoftheHebrewKings, Professor E. R. Thiele writes:

    "Ptolemy’s canon was prepared primarily for astronomical, not historical, purposes. It did not pretend to give a complete list of all the rulers of either Babylon or Persia, nor the exact month or day of the beginning of their reigns, but it was a device which made possible the correct allocation into a broad chronological scheme of certain astronomical data which were then available. Kings whose reigns were less than a year and which did not embrace the New Year’s day were not mentioned." (Italics ours.)

    So the very purpose of the Canon makes absolute dating by means of it impossible. There is no way to be sure that Ptolemy was correct in assigning a certain number of years to various kings. For example, while Ptolemy credits Evil-merodach with only two years of rule, Polyhistor assigns him twelve years. Then, too, one cannot be certain that just five kings ruled during this period. At Borsippa, for instance, were found names of a number of Babylonian kings that do not appear elsewhere.

    Nevertheless, someone may ask, Is there not an ancient astronomical tablet, "VAT 4956," that places the thirty-seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign exactly in the same year as does Ptolemy’s Canon?

    It should not be overlooked that the source of corroborative evidence should bear the earmarks of dependability. Can this be said about "VAT 4956"? Not really. The text is not an original and it contains numerous gaps. Certain terms found therein cannot even be understood now. Twice in the text the notation hi-bi (meaning "broken off, obliterated") appears. Thereby the scribe acknowledged that he was working from a defective copy.

    Even if, despite these problems, the astronomical information presents a true picture of the original, this would not establish the correctness of the historical data. As Ptolemy used the reigns of ancient kings (as he understood them) simply as a framework in which to place astronomical data, so the copyist of "VAT 4956" may, in line with the chronology accepted in his time, have inserted the ‘thirty-seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar.’ As admitted by the German scholars Neugebauer and Weidner (the translators of this text), the scribe evidently changed words to conform with the abbreviated terminology common in his day. But he was both inconsistent and inaccurate. So he could just as easily have inserted other information to suit his purposes. Hence both Ptolemy’s Canon and "VAT 4956" might even have been derived from the same basic source. They could share mutual errors.

    Opposed to Ptolemy’s Canon and "VAT 4956" stands the unanimous testimony of Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel and the writer of 2 Chronicles, that Judah and Jerusalem lay desolate for seventy years. Thousands of ancient manuscripts of these writings contain the identical testimony. So, because of the problems inherent in Ptolemy’s Canon and "VAT 4956," it takes more faith to accept them than it does to accept the Bible’s testimony, which would place the desolation of Jerusalem by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E.

  • mcsemike
    mcsemike

    To Jeremy C:

    Very well said. We should look at the whole picture, the "big picture". How many times has the WTS, when losing a point, said, "Remember where you learned the truth." As if the fact that they THINK they were first in saying there is no burning Hell is supposed to make everything else okay.

    First of all, other religions were teaching all the things Russell "invented". He was a fake and a liar.

    I'd also throw at them the verse about "debating over words". But if words are all we have to reason with and use to communicate, then ALL discussion in the world will be "debating over words" if some people disagree with others.

    The overall picture is that WT's failed predictions, mind control, and sexual perversions. Out of 1,000 things they have said, maybe 3 or 4 have been correct and have been their own unique claim. So what?? How about the 996 things that they've stolen from others and claimed as their own along with their own unique teachings, which they admit are unique? What is their percentage of accuracy??

    I'd tell every JW that he had to step out of the box and look at the WTS and himself with a critical eye. And this includes the fact that many don't even believe in God, much less any Bible.

    Oh, and "scholarly" means that "school" was involved. Using that word to convey the idea that the WTS is correct is no more valid than Captain Kangaroo saying something and demanding that he was correct. I'm sure he and Farmer Green Jeans went to school, did they not??

    WTS=idiots+liarsx(morons-pedophiles) divided by mentally ill minus lack of therapy and medications

    Mathematically, a perfect equation. I love it when there are no loose ends.

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