Has the WTBS ever explained the trinity?

by wobble 64 Replies latest jw friends

  • iloowy

    George Bush, meaning The President. (You may subsitute Senator, Prime Minister, etc.)

    I should have stated, "The President is greater than me, however he is not better. I am not inferior to the President. His office/station is undoubtedly greater."

    Sorry for the confusion.

    Ok, so if you meant George Bush as the president well,
    there was another George Bush who also was president.
    One is the father and the other the son. It's not that you
    aren't better or anyone is inferior. It's that they both were
    presidents and you're not... well, yet, anyhow.

    The fact that there have been dozens of Presidents of the
    United States doesn't mean at all that they are all somehow
    united in their different persons in one essence of being.

    The Father is greater. The Son is lesser. Where does that
    leave the Holy Spirit?

    Nowhere in the Scriptures is the idea of a Trinity of three
    divine persons in one Godship clearly stated. If it were a
    central Christian teaching then it would by necessity be
    unequivocally stated somewhere. John 1:1 doesn't say
    anything about three persons, there's only two there.

    And if Jesus indeed died on the cross then was there no
    Trinity for those parts of three days?

    If Jesus went to Hell for those three days what bad did he
    do to get there?

    No, but Jesus did die and was in the grave until he was
    resurrected to life on the third day is what the Scriptures
    say. They never say God was dead... How could that be?
    But Jesus did die, in sacrificial death for the forgiveness
    of sins, as the New Testament teaches. The word Trinity
    is nowhere to be found, in fact the idea would have been
    a blasphemy to the Jews, and they even had a hard time
    with the idea that he was the "Son of God", well, the
    Jewish leaders at the time anyway.

    The Trinity is just a tradition of men trying to rationalize
    their misunderstanding of the true divinity of our Lord and
    Savior, Jesus Christ. That's how I read it. Not that I'd try
    to force my belief on anyone, as a JW I never liked the
    forcefulness of some in combative at the door discussions.
    We can all read a version of the scriptures in our language
    of preference and learn from it... Better yet, study some
    Hebrew and Greek and read from the original languages.

    Studying traditions of men only leads to arguments and
    discussions about nothing worth getting upset about,
    although many do get quite heated about them. If a
    person has a job as a Sociologist or a Theologian,
    well maybe studying traditions could be an interesting
    endeavor, but for wanting to know the truth about the
    Christ why not just read the Bible?

    It must be tough to feel you're misunderstood and if
    I gave you the impression I was harping on any point
    of yours I apologize. I may get a bit cynical about the
    Trinity doctrine because it raises up the feelings of
    being lied to which I went through with the Catholics
    and the WT Society.

    With Christian Love.

  • leavingwt

    Ok, so if you meant George Bush as the president well,
    there was another George Bush who also was president.
    One is the father and the other the son. It's not that you
    aren't better or anyone is inferior. It's that they both were
    presidents and you're not... well, yet, anyhow.

    The fact that there have been dozens of Presidents of the
    United States doesn't mean at all that they are all somehow
    united in their different persons in one essence of being.

    The Father is greater. The Son is lesser. Where does that
    leave the Holy Spirit?

    The President analogy was in regards to Jesus' words, "the Father is greater than I". Below is a clearer analogy. (GWB and I are not involved in this one. LOL)

    Jesus has two natures. Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was merely acknowledging the fact that He was also a man. Jesus is both God and man. As a man, he was in a lesser position than the Father. He had added to Himself human nature ( Col. 2:9 ). He became a man to die for people.
    A comparison can be found in the marriage relationship. Biblically, a husband is greater in position and authority than his wife. But, he is no different in nature and he is not better than she. They share the same nature, being human, and they work together by love.
    So, Jesus was not denying that He was God. He was simply acknowledging that He was also a man and as a man, he was subject to the laws of God so that He might redeem those who were under the law; namely, sinners

    This helped me to understand why most Christians I conversed with while engaging in the door-to-door ministry could read the Scripture about the Father being "greater" than Jesus, but it would not shake their Trinitarian beliefs, one bit. For me as a JW, the Scripture was a "proof text", clearly demonstrating the Trinity to be a false teaching, plain and simple. They, on the other hand, had an alternate explanation for that very Scripture, that did not contradict their beliefs. My JW training left me ill-equipped to convince a well-read Baptist or Presbyterian that the Trinity contradicted the Scriptures, because I didn't understand their point of view. I've since then learned that they can provide a thoughtful response to every single JW proof text.

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    As an ex-JW and a new Christian I had one major problem in believing that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could make up one God, or that one God could manifest Himself at different times, and simultaneously, in three different forms. That was my inability to fathom the existence of anything beyond our physical world.

    But then I found out something quite interesting. I discovered that scientists now firmly believe that dimensions beyond our four physical dimensions of space and time do indeed exist. For they now tell us that even though we can only directly observe four dimensions, there must somehow, somewhere, exist at least six other dimensions. For, they say, only when we allow for the existence of these extra dimensions, in which forces operate beyond our four dimensional laws of physics, are we able to account for all the properties and principles of "quantum mechanics."

    Take, for instance, "string theory." At the very heart of string theory is the proposal that the cosmos experienced a dimensional split at 10 to the minus 43 seconds after the Big Bang began. At that instant, the ten-dimensional expanding universe split into two pieces: a six-dimensional piece that permanently ceased expanding and never produced matter, and a four dimensional piece that became our dimensions of length, width, height and time. Modern science maintains that only that four dimensional system continued to expand, eventually producing matter and stars. (see Stephen Hawking's A Brief History Of Time)

    Now, since modern science believes in the existence of dimensions beyond the four we experience, it seemed to me that I should be able to believe that God exists both in and beyond the four space time dimensions in which we exist. For if as the Bible says God created our physical universe, He would not be bound by the laws of the physical universe which He had created any more than I would be bound by a cage I made to keep my parakeets in. While my birds would be locked inside the width, height and depth constraints of the cage I made, I would not be so constrained. If as the Bible says God created our physical universe, He would have to be omnipresent. For, if He was not, He would be bound by the width, height and depth constraints of the "cage" He had made. The same goes for other natural laws. If God made them, He must have existed before they were made, and so He would not then have been bound by them. And He would not now be bound by them either, unless He chose to climb inside the "cage" He made, close the door and throw away the key

    I also learned that Einstein proved that time is only a dimension of our physical universe. And that time began when our physical universe began. Thus, if Christ existed "with God" (John1:1) before the creation of our physical universe He must have existed before time began, and His origin can truthfully be said to be "from the days of time indefinite." (Micah 5:2 NWT) Or for those who prefer plain English, "from everlasting," and "from the days of eternity." (KJV, NAS) So, though in one sense God's Son had a beginning, in another sense He did not. For if Jesus Christ has existed since before time began, when did He begin

    It also helped me to remember that Jesus Christ is God's "Only Begotten Son." (John 3:16) To be "begotten," according to both the Biblical and dictionary definitions, means to be produced, not out of nothing, but from a parent's own body. For instance, the Bible tells us that Abraham "begat Isaac" "from his own body." (Gen.15:4; 25:19) And it is widely understood that Isaac pictured Jesus Christ.

    Children who are begotten by a human parent, once they are full grown, are also absolutely equal to their parents in every way. In physical stature, in strength, in intelligence, etc. Granted, the child may not have the same position in business or government as his father but, in reality, that child is the parent's equal in every way. I, for instance, will always show my father the special honor a son shows to his father, but at the same time I will always be my father's equal. So, if Jesus Christ was begotten from his Father's own body, so to speak, before time began, he is both eternal (without a beginning in time), as Micah 5:2 says, and his Father's equal, as Philippians 2:6 tells us in most translations of the Bible

    Another thing I kept in mind was that our fathers are three dimensional physical people. As such they occupy only a few cubic feet of space. As their sons, begotten from their bodies, we too are three dimensional people who occupy only a few cubic feet of space. For fathers who beget sons always do so "after their own kind," so to speak. Now the Bible tells us that God is not a three dimensional being occupying only a few cubic feet of space. The Bible indicates God is omnipresent. He exists everywhere at the same time. So, if Christ was begotten from God's own body, so to speak, and "after his kind," so to speak, He too would have God's own omnipresent nature.

    When I was born the cord connecting my mother and I was cut. At that time I was no longer physically a part of either one of my parents. We soon became even more "disconnected" when I was placed in the hospital nursery fifty feet down the hall. Right now I might be in New York and both my parents might be thousands of miles away from me in California. But if God begat a Son after His own kind, so to speak, He and His Son would both be of the same substance, and thus both omnipresent. If this is so, it becomes very difficult to think of them as two separate Spirit Beings. And since they both have and send forth the same Holy Spirit, as Scripture says they do, from their mutual omnipresent position, it is not difficult to think of God as "three in one." In fact it then becomes more difficult to think of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate entities.

    Though the Trinity doctrine is clearly a very imperfect, very human, attempt to explain the nature of a God whose nature is clearly far beyond our ability to ever fully comprehend, it is almost certainly a better attempt to do so than the overly simplistic JW "1+1+1 = 3" teaching on the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

    I am now convinced that all the Scriptures pertaining to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and to their Deity, can only be understood and fully harmonized by someone who does not attempt to put the God of the Bible into some kind of four dimensional box.

  • tijkmo

    how can anyone explain the unexplainable....

  • jaguarbass

    Trinity or no trinity. The masters are pulling the wool over your eyes to keep you in the matrix.

    They got you believing there is a loving God who cares about you and mankind.

    Your jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

    But if that helps you get through the day and night disregard me.

    I'll help you out the scriptures say what ever you ask for you shall recieve. Do your own test. Is that true. If its true you have something and hang on to it.

    If its not true, and that's in the bible and you cant belive it how do you know what you can belive?

  • leavingwt


    You're making is so easy for me!



  • jaguarbass

    It's a journey Donny, based on your age and time out of the tower I think your train has just pulled out of the station. But correct me if I'm wrong and please elaborate.

  • iloowy

    But "aChristian", listen, if the scientific Big Bang's split of dimensions explains to you how it is possible for God to exist beyond the dimensions we experience... Doesn't this mean that before the big bang he didn't exist? If the dimensions came into existence, what 10 of fortythree whatever seconds or so as you say, then where was God?

    Nope. You can't explain something as unexplainable as God in modern scientific terminology, whether as weird as quantum physics or as fancy cutesy string theory. But don't get me wrong... I'd watch a Nova program on PBS about any of those theories anytime. Hurray for public TV!

    God is God. He had an only-begotten Son, that is Jesus, who was the promised Messiah, the Christ, and he promised to send a helper, Christ died, he was resurrected, he sent the Holy Spirit as helper with which believers are anointed and adopted as sons of God, brothers of Christ who put their faith in his death and resurrection as bringing redemption from sin. That's what I believe.

    I don't know much about modern scientific theories of dimensional realities, but I know that if God wanted to create the Heavens and the Earth with a Big Bang then so be it. If God exists outside of our space/time conscious mind then... May God bless the efforts of those who want to come to an accurate knowledge of Him and His Son. Why not?

    With Christian Love.

  • leavingwt

    I agree. It's a journey. Baby steps, baby steps. The cult left me shell-shocked, but my analytical thinking skills are ready for business. I'm in no hurry. I no longer fear a tyrant God that hates Chinese people and children. (If Armageddon came tomorrow, JWs believe hundreds of millions of Chinese and childen would die.)

  • Satanus

    In the aspen analogy, the greater than or knowing more than objection is easily handled. Two aspens, one 50 feet tall and one 4 feet tall that are on the same root are still the same tree. One could also have a lot more leaves than the other. Leaves referring to knowledge. No biggy.


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