A few questions for all you experts from my long JW meeting yesterday

by AuntBee 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • AuntBee

    Here are a few things that were said that seemed kind of dubious to me. (I had a meeting with 2 women that came to the door - full story in the thread "I received the knock...")

    They baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy SPirit. THey don't discourage college. The GB (FDS) is really not that big of a deal in dictating their lives, so why do i keep pressing that point? The 'door to door' hours are really not that big of a pressure or legalistic deal - after all, some are sick in bed and can't do it at all! -- THe Society encourages people to study the BIble on their own without publications or FDS guidance , people CAN come to the Truth just by reading the Bible on their own without the FDS.

  • iloowy

    Isaacs answers are all good. I would like to add that there are some JW who haven't really given much thought about these issues and who, eventhough baptized and active in service still carry over beliefs and feelings from their former religious experience. I know a ministerial servant who says "God Bless you", he's seventy something and forgets that we're not supposed to bless people like that.

    Some of the old timers have a hard time accepting the new teachings and new lights from the WT studies. Even if they go through the paragraphs it doesn't seem to sink in. Nor really that they want to be difficult and stick in the mud, it's just that change doesn't come easy.

    I truly believe that a lot of JWD forum members are more aware of deep teachings and latest revelations from the Governing Body than the majority of JWs... there are always inactive ones who barely keep informed, there are those who come because it's a habit and they're older now and couldn't dream of changing. There are those too young to know any better. There are those too distracted by the system to really pay attention... How many deep thinking and fully studied and prepared Witnesses are actually sitting through the meeting taking it all in and actively listening? Well, it's been my experience that the number is probably less than half, if that.

    So when it comes to teachings and what the GB has published a lot of JWs are just not "with it".


    The WBT$ does discourage collage..Lie#1...........The WBT$ runs "Every Thing" in a JW`s life..Sex..What kind or car to buy..Where to stay during assemblies..Who to talk to..Ect..Ect..Lie#2.................If you don`t get your hours in,you will be hounded..People sick in hospital beds have a little Card on they`re bed side table,so the WBT$ can be advertised.(No pressure there!..LOL!!)..Lie#3......................There has never been a JW on the planet,that has had a Bible Study..JW`s study literature about the bible,written by the WBT$..There is no bible study..JW`s and the WBT$ believe no one can understand the bible without the guidance of the WBT$..Lie#4..............................Those 2 lady`s lie a lot..LOL!!..The name of the religion should be changed to the "JW Liar`s Club"..LOL!!.........I`ve had JW`s come to my door and lie too..I point out every lie..They don`t care..It`s pointless talking to them..La La LaLa La La........................Laughing Mutley...OUTLAW

  • yknot

    Sounds like two women at the KH haven't really been paying attention for the last couple of decades or they are straight faced liars.

    Sadly there are many who really don't pay attention. They scan the pubs/ bible citations enough to make a decent answer, they knock on doors, go to all the events & meetings.......yet are absolutely clueless to explain the full details of our beliefs. They are strictly cliff-notes only.

    The cliff notes version is much like the public watchtower.....heavily sugar coated half truths.

  • OnTheWayOut
    "At the close of the convention baptism talk, the baptism candidates will be in position to answer with depth of understanding and heartfelt appreciation two simple questions that serve to confirm that they recognize the implications of following Christ's example. The first question is:
    On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
    The second is:
    Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? Having answered yes to these questions, candidates are in a right heart condition to undergo Christian baptism." Watchtower 1985 June 1 p.30
      "Under the guidance of his holy spirit and on the basis of his Word of truth, Jehovah provides what is needed so that all of God's people may be "fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought" and remain "stabilized in the faith." (1 Cor. 1:10; Col. 2:6, 7) Surely we are grateful for Jehovah's spiritual provisions in these last days. Thus, "the faithful and discreet slave" does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight." Kingdom Ministry Sep. 2007 US Edition

      "They do not claim that this slave class is infallible, but they do view it as the one channel that the Lord is using during the last days of this system of things." Proclaimers p.626

      "The men of that governing body, like the apostles and older men in Jerusalem, have many years of experience in God's service. But they do not rely on human wisdom in making decisions. No, being governed theocratically, they follow the example of the early governing body in Jerusalem, whose decisions were based on God's Word ." You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p.195

      "It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision." Watchtower 1957 June 15 p.370

      "To this day the Governing Body follows similar guidelines. Each article in both The Watchtower and Awake! and every page, including the artwork, is scrutinized by selected members of the Governing Body before it is printed. … Therefore, you can read The Watchtower and Awake! with confidence." Watchtower 1987 Mar. 1 p.15

      "The point is that Christians have implicit trust in their heavenly Father; they do not question what he tells them through his written Word and organization. Things work out well for those who in this trusting way go along with God's way of doing things. For example, Jehovah through his organization has for years warned his people of the harmful effects of using tobacco, and those who heeded this advice were benefited both physically and spiritually." Watchtower 1974 July 15 p.441

      "God uses The Watchtower to communicate to his people: it does not consist of men's opinions…. Those who believe that God uses The Watchtower as a means of communicating to his people, or of calling attention to his prophecies, should study The Watchtower with thankfulness of heart and give Jehovah God and Christ Jesus all the honor and credit and give neither honor nor credit to any man." Watchtower 1942 Jan. 1 p.5

        The quotes from WT literature above were taken from jwfacts.com, but can be verified in WT literature.
        The "Faithful and Discreet Slave" is represented by the Governing Body. It is a smoke screen to make
        many feel that a small group of men in NY are not the only "leaders." The average member doesn't realize
        how much control that small group of men has had over them.

        Prior to 1975, the JW's were totally demonizing higher education because the end was so near
        Here are some quotes from http://www.freeminds.org/psych/educatn.htm:

        "Higher" Education not Needed in God's New Order

        In the June 8, 1967 issue, the Awake! magazine printed an article on pages 38 entitled "Second Thoughts About a College Education." This article painted a sorry picture of inadequate teachers and courses, financially strapped colleges, violent and immoral climates in schools, heavy drug use, and atheistic attitudes prevailing in colleges. It went on to say that job opportunities for college educated people were very poor, with work not requiring higher education often paying more. This article was written during the push for 1975, and along with many other articles written between 1966 and 1975 highlighted the idea that the end was so near that education would be a foolish waste of time. Education would not be needed in the new world. With the end so near, trades would be more useful in the new order than education. Here is a quote from that article:

        Parents who are Jehovah's witnesses have another very sound reason for channeling their children's lives into useful trades. They know from fulfilled Bible prophecy that today's industrial society is near its end. Soon it will be given its death stroke by Almighty God himself. After that, in God's new order a reconstruction work will be done to transform this entire earth into a paradise. Trades of many types will be very useful then, as will skills in agriculture and homemaking. So by guiding their children away from the socalled 'higher' education of today, these parents spare their children exposure to an increasingly demoralizing atmosphere, and at the same time prepare them for life in a new system as well. 3

        Higher Education part of "Devil's Propaganda"

        The following quotation from a 1969 Watchtower article hints at how strongly the Society opposed higher learning. Making something of yourself is here classed as "Devil's propaganda." Notice the continuing theme that time is too short to waste it on education. They, claim that the only work with a future is Watchtower service.

        Many schools now have student counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school, to pursue a career with a future in this system of things. Do not be influenced by them. Do not let them "brainwash" you with the Devil's propaganda to get ahead, to make something of yourself in this world. The world has very little time left! Any "future" this world offers is no future! ... Make pioneer service, the fulltime ministry, with the possibility of Bethel or missionary service your goal. This is a life that offers an everlasting future! 4

        The freeminds article goes on to show how they backed off on demonizing college and even said it was okay for awhile.

        Here are quotes from Barbara Anderson at http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/education_anderson.htm:

        Prior to November 1992, the message in Witness literature from their leadership was unmistakable and absolute—university education was something Jehovah’s Witnesses should not pursue. Why not? Because higher education is the way to obtain a prestigious “worldly” career and the key to a prosperous, materialistic life-style in a world that God will soon destroy.

        For example, in 1969, the Watchtower stated the following with respect to how Witness high school graduates should view the pursuit of higher education:

        “The influence and spirit of this world is to get ahead, to make a name for oneself. Many schools now have student counselors who encourage one to pursue higher education after high school, to pursue a career with a future in this system of things. Do not be influenced by them. Do not let them “brainwash” you with the Devil’s propaganda to get ahead, to make something of yourself in this world. This world has very little time left! Any ‘future’ this world offers is no future!” [1]

        Further, notice what another Witness periodical, Awake!, claimed:

        "If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. ...as a young person you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone! This is why parents who base their lives on God’s prophetic Word find it much more practical to direct their young ones into trades that do not require such long periods of additional schooling." [2]

        As a whole, the Witnesses accepted this mindset until 1992 when an article appeared in the November 1st Watchtower, “Education With A Purpose,” that was construed by more progressive Witnesses as a considerable change of viewpoint toward higher education. However, rather than being a revolutionizing initiative taken by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, in reality, certain economic developments forced a modification of their previously held opinion. As before, readers were admonished to continue to be “interested in education, not for its own sake, but in order to become more effective servants of Jehovah.” And the message set out for young Witnesses remained the same—find jobs that pay decent wages and ‘pioneer’ [engage in the full-time missionary service].

        In today’s world, as prices climb, it is a challenge for everyone, including Jehovah’s Witnesses, to provide adequate necessities, much less luxuries, for themselves and their families, so the value of higher education has become more of a necessity than ever before. Yet, in 2005, the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses decided that parents should not be overly concerned about the ability of their children to support themselves in the future. In the October 1, 2005 Watchtower an article appeared, “Parents—What Future Do You Want for Your Children?which would alter the outlook of the Witnesses towards higher education once again. Why was another adjustment necessary?

        Basically, since the November 1, 1992 Watchtower article appeared, more than fourteen years of academic freedom of choice caused many young Witnesses throughout the world to include more education after completing high school, and, upon graduation, they were not working part-time and pursuing full-time service goals anymore. Not only were Witness youths attending colleges and universities, but many adult Witnesses went back to school, enrolling in college and universities where they took courses to equip themselves for better paying jobs. From evaluating the reports of their traveling representatives, the consensus at Witness headquarters was that parents were being swept along by the spirit of competition for material advancement and success for their children and for themselves. This sentiment was expressed at a number of Kingdom Ministry Schools (seminars for Witness overseers) where Witnesses were said to be “taking advantage” of the new stance on college, going beyond getting education that would make it easier to pioneer or provide for their families. These were said to be “trying to make a name for themselves” in this world. Accordingly, this trend had to be reined in. Therefore, it was the October 1, 2005 Watchtower article’s purpose to redefine higher education in the minds of the ‘flock.’ It focused them back on technical and vocational schools which offered short-term courses for their children, which always had a certain amount of subdued approval within the group.

        The October 1, 2005 Watchtower made clear that university or college for four or more years, leading to a bachelor’s degree or to postgraduate studies for careers in medicine, law, engineering, and so forth, was out. Thereafter, criticism began of any Witness attending college or university for instruction in high-paying specialized fields. But how to convince the flock that attending college was not in their best interests, and that they should be satisfied with short-termsupplementary education? Part of the Governing Body’s strategy was to attempt to prove—by using secular arguments, current research and studies—that earning a university degree was not a guarantee of successful job placement, and that the cost for a Witness youth could be higher than what it was worth.

        In the first eight paragraphs of the October 1, 2005 Watchtower article discussing higher education, there are many Biblical texts quoted to assist stressed parents to come to a decision as they try to make educational decisions for their children’s future in harmony with their religious beliefs. The Watchtower points out that “High school students today are under tremendous pressure from teachers, counselors, and fellow students to aim for enrollment in the best universities, where they will hopefully earn the degrees that can open for them doors to promising and well-paying jobs.” A question is asked in paragraph 8: [S]hould they [parents] simply let their children be swept along by the spirit of competition [italics mine] for material advancement and success?” To Witness parents, this question rang ominously. The Watchtower Society has often condemned competition using Galatians 5:26: “Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another.”

        Further, under the first subheading, “The Cost of Pursuing Higher Education,” in paragraphs 9-13, there are again many scriptures found, but, in addition, there are four secular references quotedto direct the minds of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ parents to the downside of allowing their children to go to college or university. Explained in these paragraphs are the costs of pursuing higher education, such as: 1. Expense. “…quality higher education is fast becoming the domain of the rich and influential, who put their children through it to ensure that they too become the rich and influential of this system. Should Christian parents choose such a goal for their children?” 2. Strings attached. “The education in some countries may be practically free, but the price that the students pay is a life engrossed in advancing the present system.” 3. Environment. “University and college campuses are notorious for bad behavior—drug and alcohol abuse, immorality, cheating, hazing, and the list goes on.” 4. Pressure of schoolwork and examinations. “All of this takes a great deal of their time and energy. What, then, will be left for spiritual activities?” And then the Watchtower asks: “How sad that some have fallen away from the faith as a result of succumbing to the demands on their time and energy or of getting entangled in unscriptural conduct at college!”

        Next, under the subheading, “What Are the Alternatives,” after scriptural quotations were inserted to influence parents and children to not follow what is popular, but to pick subjects and vocation goals that are geared to pursuing a theocratic career, paragraph 18 summed up the position of the Governing Body towards supplemental education: “Studies show that in many countries, there is an acute need, not for university graduates, but for people to work in the trades and services.” With that thought in mind, parents were encouraged to enroll their children in short courses in office skills, auto repair, computer repair, plumbing, hairdressing, and a host of other trades because these jobs “…offer the means and the flexibility needed by those whose true vocation is service to Jehovah.”

        Not a whole lot more is in print. There are little digs here and there, but the majority of anti-college preaching
        comes from the platform at the hall and at the assemblies. I was at an elder's meeting with the Circuit Overseer
        when they started telling us how we need to help the congregation focus on how unnecessary college really is.
        It is preached heavily from the platform.

      • AK - Jeff
        AK - Jeff

        All I can say is WOW!

        Brainwashed robots! George Orwell would be so proud of the WTS for what it has done in this regard.

        Each and every point can be summarily destroyed by their own publications. Just punch in the key words in the search feature of the Watchtower Library CD.

        I say again - WOW!


      • booby

        Many I believe, truly think that total adherence to every GB teaching or command is not totally obligatory. Wait till they say the wrong thing to the wrong person. Same as field service. Many feel that it is totally thier best effort and that suffices. I became inactive during a very trying time in my life and when I asked an elder that has many years of experience who was at my door, what constituted my standing as one of Jehovah's Witnesses (the question was asked because of the way I felt because of the way I was being treated in the congregation and I believe he understood what I was asking) his answer was, well you haven't reported field service for over six months, which to me was equating my standing before Jehovah with my field activity. He did in no way make an effort to comfort me, suggest a way to get back on track or otherwise help me. It really was part of my wake up call to get me to where I am today. Out. So I truly believe that many who are still in have no real clue of how they could be treated or viewed simply because they have not run into the situation that brings it to the fore.

      • AuntBee

        Thanks for all the responses and helpful info. The one woman was very intelligent and knowledgeable. I would say she is probably one of their best and brightest. I believe she was anticipating how i would react to certain things, and adjusted the 'truth' accordingly. Maybe even getting a little worn down, and didn't want to face any more of those things head-on.

      • rebel8

        First they claim jws are allowed to make whatever decisions they want and remain in good standing, which is patently untrue.

        The person unsuspectingly joins, thinking he is free to do what he wants.

        Once he joins, they begin the coercive mind control tactic known as creating a sense of powerlessness. Definition: subjecting the person to intense and frequent actions and situations which undermine the person's confidence in himself and his judgment.

        By this time, the person is already committed, has gained new friends and eliminated old friends, maybe even changed jobs so he can work with other jws, and already has total faith that this is the one and only true religion and involvement is the only way to stay alive past Armageddon, which is coming any day now. Now he finds out the rules are really required. He complies.

        Tell these sistas you want to attend Mass (yes, use that word, it will annoy them) and interview members afterwards about what they're allowed to believe and do. The answers will inevitably be the same, "Well yes I do such and such because I want to."


      • blondie

        Evolution of baptism questions and "holy spirit" disappears....why?

        Baptismal questions from the August 1, 1966 Watchtower, p. 465:

        (1) Have you recognized yourself before Jehovah God as a sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?

        (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

        Baptismal questions from the May 15, 1970 Watchtower, p. 309:

        (1) Have you recognized yourself as a sinner and needing salvation from Jehovah God? And have you acknowledged that this salvation proceeds from him and through his ransomer, Christ Jesus?

        (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for redemption have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to Jehovah God, to do his will henceforth as that will is revealed to you through Christ Jesus and through God's Word as his holy spirit makes it plain?

        Baptismal questions from the May 1, 1973 Watchtower, p. 280:

        (1) Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his Son Jesus Christ?
        (2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

        Pre 1950


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