"NO EVIDENCE" for God, and creation? Maybe there is . .

by hooberus 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Atheists (however one defines the term) frequently use the term "no evidence" in relation to the existence of God, any type of creation, (especially Genesis creation and flood), or most any other theistic claim. They almost always however claim that their beliefs are "backed by evidence" ; "overwhelming evidence" etc, etc, etc, etc, repeat, etc, repeat, etc.. (Their beliefs generally tend to include whatever is necessary to believe in to intellectually "explain" the world without needing God)

    Is there really "no evidence" for God, and creation? Or, perhaps is there in fact some fairly decent evidence (though not necessarily absolute proof), and their calim of "no evidence" is a more of a product of their own ignorance or bias rather than of facts.

    The following resources are an attempt to provide readers with some evidence that they may not be aware of, and then perhaps they can consider whether their really is "no evidence" for such things.

    Fine-Tuning Design ArgumentThe Fine-Tuning Design Argument:
    A Scientific Argument for the Existence of God

    The book The Biotic Message should also be referenced on this argument as it points out the naturalists attempts to evade the issue by invoking infinite numbers of unknown universes to overcome probability analysis leads to untestability and hense pseudo-science by there own standards.

    http://saintpaulscience.com/contents.htm

      • Covers issues in the philosophy of science.
      • Explains the difference between scientific and non-scientific theories, particularly the key role of testability.
      • Documents that evolutionists themselves have thoroughly endorsed testability as the criterion of science in all the key creation/evolution court cases.

        The book later argues that evolution is not science — using the evolutionist's own criterion of testability. Some evolutionary leaders are quoted essentially admitting that. The book argues that the new creation theory is testable science, and evolution is not. This role reversal is noteworthy since it engages the debate on the evolutionists' terms using their own criterion of science. It is also a departure from previous creationist positions.

      • Debunks the evolutionists' attempts to define creation out of science:
        • Identifies cases where evolutionists use a double standard — one standard for creation theory, and a lesser one for evolution.
        • Shows that theories involving an intelligent designer are already accepted by evolutionists as testable science. Therefore, evolutionists cannot claim such theories are inherently unscientific.
        • Debunks the evolutionist's assault on the argument from design. Shows that the argument from design can be thoroughly convincing. For example, we often show that someone's death was not accidental, that it was designed — and we show it so compellingly that we execute the 'designer'.
        • Shows that some statements about the supernatural can be testable science. The key is that science must remain self-consistent, it cannot be allowed to contradict itself, and this sometimes forces us to accept some element of the supernatural. Gödel's Theorem (from the logic of mathematics) is discussed as a precedent setting example. This is a contribution to the wider philosophy of science as well as the origins debate.
        • Shows the anthropic principle is not testable, and so not science by evolutionists' own criterion. It reveals an illusion involving a three-shell game ruse, much like is later revealed for natural selection.

    Probability of the Origin of Life design argument:

    There are numerous resources that can be listed here. For demonstration sake the following is a simplified calculation of specifiying 1/2 of the amino acid sites to obatain a single functional protein. http://www.globalflood.org/papers/insixdays.html.

    The above book The Biotic Message also demonstrates the accurate use of such calculations, as well as responds to bogus attempt to escape probability analysis and the origin of life. (see also http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/3030)

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    I still believe in God - however, there is just too much evidence of evolution for me to dismiss it completely

  • Gopher
    Gopher
    Atheists (however one defines the term) frequently use the term "no evidence" in relation to the existence of God, any type of creation, (especially Genesis creation and flood), or most any other theistic claim. They almost always however claim that their beliefs are "backed by evidence" ; "overwhelming evidence" etc, etc, etc, etc, repeat, etc, repeat, etc.. (Their beliefs generally tend to include whatever is necessary to believe in to intellectually "explain" the world without needing God)

    You need more clarity than this. I'll define the term atheist for you, since I am one -- I should know. An atheist is simply someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't see enough evidence to say that there certainly is a god. In other words, an atheist is a non-believer.

    An atheist doesn't need "evidence" for the lack of a god. Do you need "evidence" for the lack of a Santa Claus, or for the lack of an almighty pink unicorn?

    You don't look for "evidence" to prove the non-existence of something. The burden of proof is one the one asserting that an invisible being (deity, Santa Claus, almighty pink unicorn) exists.

    You're confusing atheism with the acceptance of the role of evolution in earth's history. While sometimes both thoughts are held in the same mind, they are certainly not equal. I've already defined atheism. Evolution is basically the development of new forms of life over eons of time.

    Now there does exist tons of proof for evolution - in the fossil record, for example. Those who accept evolution don't think it's a "belief", but rather the rational scientific conclusion about how life developed over time.

    "Belief" is in things that have no proof or no scientific basis. "Accepting" evolution is not "belief", in fact anyone who's serious about the subject demands proof rather than just connecting the dots and filling in any gaps by insisting that one unproven idea or another is true.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Atheists (however one defines the term) frequently use the term "no evidence" in relation to the existence of God, any type of creation, (especially Genesis creation and flood), or most any other theistic claim. They almost always however claim that their beliefs are "backed by evidence" ; "overwhelming evidence" etc, etc, etc, etc, repeat, etc, repeat, etc.. (Their beliefs generally tend to include whatever is necessary to believe in to intellectually "explain" the world without needing God)

    You need more clarity than this. I'll define the term atheist for you, since I am one -- I should know. An atheist is simply someone who, for whatever reason, doesn't see enough evidence to say that there certainly is a god. In other words, an atheist is a non-believer. . . .

    This thread is not about the definition of atheism, nor is it about if they claim "for whatever reason" to not "see enough evidence to say that there certainly is a god".

    Instead it is about the frequent claim made by some several of them that there is "no evidence" for God, creation, etc.

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    But you said this:

    They almost always however claim that their beliefs are "backed by evidence" ; "overwhelming evidence" etc, etc, etc, etc, repeat, etc, repeat, etc..

    The italics for "their beliefs" were added by you. The word "atheism" is divided into "a-", meaning "without", and "theism" - meaning "belief in God". Atheism is not used to describe beliefs, but lack of a belief in any deity.

    I would go on to further say that evolutionary science is not about 'beliefs', but rather about a scientific conclusion about how life developed, based on all available evidence.

    You may argue this is a "belief", but I'm here to say that the main ones with beliefs here are the "believers", i.e., the creationists and the theists.

    As an atheist, I will not simply believe anything until I see enough evidence that it is factual. At that point no 'faith' or 'belief' is necessary. It's a fact !!

    However, If there's not enough evidence pro or con, I'll own up to the fact that I simply DO NOT KNOW.

    I don't think this stance is dogmatic at all.

  • middleman
    middleman

    Great post.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    But you said this:

    They almost always however claim that their beliefs are "backed by evidence" ; "overwhelming evidence" etc, etc, etc, etc, repeat, etc, repeat, etc..

    The italics for "their beliefs" were added by you. The word "atheism" is divided into "a-", meaning "without", and "theism" - meaning "belief in God". Atheism is not used to describe beliefs, but lack of a belief in any deity.

    My comments were not to state here that "Atheism" itself is belief (that depends on its definition), but instead that atheists (people) usually also have positive beliefs that they claim are "backed by evidence"; "overwhelmidng evidence" etc. -which of course they do.

  • wherehasmyhairgone
  • RAF
    RAF
    As an atheist, I will not simply believe anything until I see enough evidence that it is factual. At that point no 'faith' or 'belief' is necessary. It's a fact !!
    However, If there's not enough evidence pro or con, I'll own up to the fact that I simply DO NOT KNOW.
    I don't think this stance is dogmatic at all.

    Find the definition of dogmatic (http://www.answers.com/dogmatic) and you'll see that it is a dogmatic system (means not open to what you don't know or don't care about)

    That’s a belief system in fact (the fact that is it your way to believe in something or not or leave it as it is, for something unknown) which is a rather reasonable and also very comfortable belief system when it comes to argue.

    That still doesn’t mean that what can’t be backed up by facts is unknown (what is the definition of knowing? it depends on what we are talking about exactly ... How does anyone deal with paranormal for instance? = still unknown as scientific facts, but experienced in live by that individual … = he doesn’t know what exactly, but have something left as something happened, so he knows that this happened and therefore can’t deny it.

    That’s when "reasonable" people (but in fact : personally not aware of that kind of experience) will tell you it’s all about imagination – ok (why not but it is only one possibilly out of X ones possible), Also what if several people experienced it together? What do those who did not experience such thing know exactly and why in those cases do they often need to “find” improvable (in fact) scientific or psychological explanations for the/those specific case(s)? … I mean unknown for someone is just unknown from that one or multiple person/people (= your belief system, but applied individually) not for everybody (= you/they don’t know anything about something someone else experienced) so leave it as “UNKNOWN to you” as usually.

    That being said ‘since it’s about God in this thread, here again it’s all about definition first: what is God exactly for each one of us (believer or non believer)? Before to get into the very known cliches.

    What do we say when a new born baby kid grows up and learns to be able by himself of something at some point (physically and mentally) can’t we say that he did evolve (in both cases)? And what is the evolution process all about, if not that (for the evolutionist for instance from one "unic" cell) isn’t that intelligent "unique" material?

    So conceptually there is no difference in between evolutionist and creationist believers ... (but, but, but ... it's all about the details ... that WE ALL don't know about for real). That's when of course any can come up with his own point(s) of view(s) (from what each one learned from a or several religions, or from what they feel),

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr

    If there was evidence for creation, there wouldn't be a need to believe.

    Science would have defeated faith.

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