From what I understand then is that Paul did not have all the answers at that time, but in time Christians would be seeing things clearer and clearer. So Jehovah does reveal things step by step. In other words not all at once, but as needed.
1 Cor. 13:12
by YoYoMama 17 Replies latest jw friends
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outnfree
Permit me to say that I have heard others (mostly Roman Catholics, but not only RCs) talking about seeing God "face-to-face" and it is always in the context of heaven, post death.
Which to me, makes perfect sense in this context. Christians will never really have a comprehensive view of who God is or what God means until they meet their Maker "face-to-face." One simply cannot know God. (I think that's actually a Scripture somewhere else in Paul's writings?)
Meanwhile, for Mr. Poole to say
Again, when the full development of the word of God [the canon] came to be, this is when things came to be clear [face-to-face]back then.
seems to me a mere assertion, but not without support by others.
The marginal commentary on 1 Cor. 13:8-12 in The Quest Bible (NIV) reads as follows, YoYoMama:
When will knowledge, tongues and prophecy come to an end?
Only after we have received full revelation: Now we see poorly; then we will have a complete knowledge (v.12); Some believe this full knowledge refers to completed text of the New Testament -- that when the Bible was finished, the revelation gifts of the Spirit ceased to function. Others say that though we have Scripture, we do not yet know everything completely. They believe Paul was speaking of a time yet to come when everything imperfect disappears (v.10). Paul's conviction that he will know fully (v.12), they say, suggests a time to come when he will be in the presence of God, in heaven. Whether this means at death or when all believers are resurrected is not clear.When perfection comes, how much will we know? (13:12)
All that can be said is that we will know as much as is possible for redeemed an perfected human beings to know. We will certainly know more than what is possible to know or express now. To know fully means to have reached the limits of what it means to be redeemed for eternity in the presence of God.So YoYo, now you know what orthodoxy teaches, anyway.
outnfree
P.S. Unc -- Pauline Christianity does seem to be a different beast than what the Essenes were teaching, eh?
When the truth is found to be lies
and all the joy within you dies ... -- Darby Slick, Somebody to Love -
Yerusalyim
My two cents worth on the subject? Paul is saying that as humans with limited human capacity of understanding that we are incapable of comprehending the majesty of God, His Plan, His Love, etc. When our final salvation comes, when we See Jesus as he truly is, we will become LIKE HIM (1John 3) and then we will see clearly, we will understand.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
AMarie
Good Point, Yo Yo Mama. I can see why JWs put their faith in the Governing Body...Because they believe truth is being given to them in bits and pieced through these men according to 1 Corinthians.
However, how can we be so sure that all of these men have good intentions. Even though they are "annointed", they are still imperfect human beings. It is very easy for power to go straight to their heads. Maybe you should speak to some ex-Bethelite and ex-elders and hear their stories. Being that they saw how the society ran first hand.
How are we expected to stay in a religion that runs the way it does? Sure, there is alot of good points about the JW religion, however, it doesn't outweigh the bad. We were told to put up with our brother's inperfections, which was sound counsel considering we're all imperfect. However, how much it too much. When does imperfection become corruption? If god truthfully is going to destroy all of those who are not in the JW religion, but love him with all of their hearts, then I would gladly be first in line to go. It is incomprehensible that a god of love would do something like that.
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willy_think
hi yo,
Yerusalyim's understanding of 13.12 is mine too. i would only aid that the love we see indistinctly Paul was speaking about is not only gods love for us and our love for him but also our love for each other.
love never fails but we only love in part. when the perfect comes we will know love completely.
try reading from 13.4-13 -
hillary_step
YoYo,
Paul is speaking of how one has an imperfect understanding of spiritual things on earth compared to the reality and perfect understanding of seeing Christ face to face in heavenly life, i.e 'When we get to heaven we will really know'. It is all about the promise of a ressurection, not the 'light getting brighter', which scripture incidentally does not pertain to anything but growth of personal wisdom in worship of God. Read the whole chapter in Proverbs, and you will see the point of what Solomon was trying to say.
This whole idea of revelations being made known gradually to the 'church' is interesting, as it is on exactly the same principle that most other religions feel that God has enlightened them with many of their exclusive doctrines over the passage of time.
How do you seperate their revelations from WTS revelations?
Best regards - HS
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Thomas Poole
To YoYoMama
From what I understand then is that Paul did not have all the answers at that time…
The answers Paul had at that time were to explained to the Corinthian Christians the MEANING of having the gifts, and the MOTIVE behind using the gifts.
but in time Christians would be seeing things clearer and clearer.
Absolutely, yes; however their “seeing” was to come from listening and applying the instructions from Paul that explained about love and gifts of the spirit.As Corinthians, they started from a very worldly, spiritistic, pagan, materialistic society. Those Christians were yet carnal [fleshly] about many of their views and practicises involving the gifts of the spirit. They were like children abusing a new toy. So, they needed correction.
Paul pointed out that if one were to have every spiritual manifestation and gift and yet DID NOT HAVE LOVE, he had nothing. They needed to know that the motive behind the gifts was LOVE. In I Corinthians 13:1-8, the use of LOVE MORE THAN GIFTS is greatly emphasized.
They did not realized that the key to spirituality was not to seek and find a gift, but rather to allow for the Holy Spirit to produce fruit.
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Thomas Poole
For Yo-Yo, siegswife, & others [About the charismatic mind],
One of the views today of tongues is the same as what the carnal Christians held in Corinth, until Paul counseled them about the proper use of them. What Hillary says above is not correct. Note how she starts in the following:Paul is speaking of how one has an imperfect understanding of spiritual things on earth compared to the reality and perfect understanding of seeing Christ face to face IN HEAVENLY LIFE
This incorrect view of face-to-face in heaven is one reason we have the charismatic influence today with the rampant misuse of tongues, along with the advantages given to Satan. To the Charismatic, nothing has passed away, nothing is complete, all gifts are still in force.
The expression "when that which is perfect..."refers not to any heavenly arrangement or the return of Chirst. The Greek word here for perfect is Teleon, the use of which is for expressing "wholeness or maturity." The context is for the development of the church from the childhood (spoke as a child) stage to the adult "Teleon" stage, during that era.
The charismatic mind today is guilty of the same thing that Paul criticized the Corinthians about. Now further, and notice the deviation of our topic into heaven and resurrection subjects, which Paul neither implies or says anything about.
When we get to heaven we will really know'. It is all about the promise of a ressurection, not the 'light getting brighter,' which scripture incidentally does not pertain to anything but growth of personal wisdom in worship of God.
This person speaks in absolute confidence without referring to the Corinthians scriptures that we are talking about. She says light-getting-brighter in the context of eventually getting to know when you are in heaven. Well by that time, nothing would matter about understanding the gifts anyway. Meantime there is a no-holds on any of the gifts.Then she talks about personal wisdom. Well, the reason Paul was there was to correct their ignorance. There was no waiting on their personal widom. Now note the disconnection away from the Corinthians scriptures we are talking about into reading a whole chapter(?) in Proverbs.
Read the whole chapter(?) in Proverbs, and you will see the point of what Solomon was trying to say.
One thing a Charismatics do is they say things with upmost absolute deceived confidence, and on and on they go. To where, no one knows. If you listen carefully you will find they don't make sense. Now watch this even further disconnection from our topic of the gifts and tongues, as follows:This whole idea of revelations being made known gradually to the 'church' is interesting, as it is on exactly the same principle that most other religions feel that God has enlightened them with many of their exclusive doctrines over the passage of time.
Forget Corinthians, right! Just jump over to interpreting Revelation. Then here is the final non-related punch line, as follows:How do you separate their revelations from WTS revelations?
So, we went from talking about face-to-face in clearity of spiritual gifts to a some unknown whole chapter in Proverbs, into something in Revelation--of which you are now supposed to have a complete study--being compare with the WT: a complete disconnected separation from the topic at hand has occurred. The reason I bring to trial, Hillary's text is becauseIT IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF THE EMOTIONAL TONGUE-DRIVEN CHARISMATIC MIND.
That is, while rambling and talking indiscriminently; their logic is usually disconnected; their false tongues are a need for them as a way of life; and their life and worship is entirely based upon needing and expressing experience rather than understanding scriptures. You will have some say they don't do it like those other tonge types do; we're more spiritual. It is all the same.
Any careful reasoning about the scriptures with them gives way to their need for you to have the experience of talking in tongues. Just try it they say. Here let me help you; say what I say. Then you will be enlighted as we are.In place of fruitage provided by the Holy Spirit, they are taken in by fantascies provided by their own experiences, which Satan make use of.
Also, their tongues puff them up to think they are superior to other Christians. You're never one of them unless you do tongues; well, there are no 2nd class Christians! They sometimes share experiences of their even resurrecting the dead. They really like the slaying-in-the-spirit[keeling over]experience, which is definitely demonic. You see, they are experience driven.
The 1 Corinthians Chapters 12,13,14 are very interesting; however, it takes a bit of calm-time and reason to get the sense of them. The charismatic mind is usually too jumpy to settle into calm reason.
They will discuss things mainly with the intent for you to do tongues so that you can be enlighten like they are. Like the JWs who want you to join the WT, the Charismatic wants you to speak in tongues. Anyone can do it. Pretending at first, they the supernatural will kick-in if the spirit feels you are ready for it.
To some people, anything supernatural is straight from God, not true. Unclean spirits do not want the charistmatically driven mind to slow down and reason.
The bottom line is to study those Chapters without the need to be charismatic. Of course the charismatic might get to you before you study them. They will want your mind for first, then they take away your reason.