1 Cor. 13:12

YoYoMama

What did Paul mean when he said "At present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror."?

Was he not annointed? Did Jehovah not reveal everything to him? Why not?

Fredhall

Paul was annointed, but annointed ones does not know everything about the Bible.

ISP

Oops ! Don't forget Paul did not learn the 'truth' by word of mouth like most folks.....ie. 99.9%! He got it directly from God!

*** Rbi8 Galatians 1:11-12 ***
11 For I put YOU on notice, brothers, that the good news which was declared by me as good news is not something human; 12 for did I receive it from man, nor was I taught [it], except through revelation by Jesus Christ.

So if says he doesn't know something or something is 'hazy' you just know he is making it up! Believe at your peril.

ISP

wallaby jack

What did Paul mean when he said "At present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror."?

"God Knows"* what that turncoat who wasn't really a turncoat meant YoYoMama,

Paul's overt agenda from the begining was to destroy Jesus Nazarites and thus thier influence in the Jewish diaspora. (I think he was in the pay of Rome like the rest of Jerusalems Temple guardians) I believe he accomplished this by presenting the world with a new religion, one which replaced the martyred Jew with a Christ worthy of veneration throughout the greek speaking world.

In 1Cor. 13:12 Paul may well have had in mind the shape of his new religion then taking form from the myths and legends of the day.

Mr.Fred Hall,

The annointed class have trouble dressing themseves these days. One could say they see but a hazy outline of themselves in the bathroom mirror. I can't remmember any evidence of them thinking anything profound, let alone comprehending ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek manuscripts.

cheers, unclebruce.

* A Paulism.

Thomas Poole

What did Paul mean when he said "At present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror."?

Paul, here, is saying that current knowledge and understanding of things is hazy, like looking into a metal mirror where you can see the image, but it is not quite clear, so it can be baffling to view.

Ever tried to see yourself in a piece of unpolished metal. You have to move it all around, and even then you can look quite wierd, baffling.

Note also vs. 9 that total knowledge and total prophesying is at that current time only BIT-BY-BIT [baffling as a total perception].

Then, in the last part of the same phrase, eventually what is seen [knowledge and understanding] will be clear, will be like a real true "FACE TO FACE" image.

Was he not annointed? Did Jehovah not reveal everything to him? Why not?

At that time, the development of the Congregation was in progress; all the scriptures were not then compiled sufficiently, having only pieces of knowledge and not all the prophecies, things were hazy and baffling.

Although Paul wrote I Corinthians, the maturation of the "Child Congregation" into the "Adult congregation" was a progress in which all members were in volved, as with tongues, prophecies, and knowledge. These gifts provided a kick-start for developing the first associations of Christians. The revealing of knowledge and prophesy was "in-progress."

However, Paul was there to balance their improper use of tongues. He was teaching them that prophecy was a greater gift than tongues; and above all, that LOVE was the greatest need.

For anyone undecided about their WT position, verses one through three about love should open their minds that what the WT claims of itself is not really so. There is no WT love in line with these scriptures!!

When using the gifts, the major requirement was to have a motivation of love. Without love the gifts are of no consequence to the persons having them.

Noteworthy is that the words in verse 9 "when that which is perfect comes...", this is NOT talking about Christ's return, it is talking about the completion of these gifts, where the congregation becomes as an adult; the scriptures have been completed [made perfect, made complete]; and the kick-start has been made complete, made perfect.

wallaby jack

Hello Thomas Poole,

Paul, here, is saying that current knowledge and understanding of things is hazy, like looking into a metal mirror where you can see the image, but it is not quite clear, so it can be baffling to view.
Ever tried to see yourself in a piece of unpolished metal. You have to move it all around, and even then you can look quite wierd, baffling.

I take issue with the word i emphasised above Bro.Poole. You are immediately transfering Pauls view 1900 years to the present instead of trying to, at least initially, understand things as they were at the time Paul wrote to the adherants to his new religion in Corinth.

I wish you could caste aside your bable indoctrination for a while and impassively observe history for what it is, a study of a snippet in time best seen without rose colored christian blinkers (glasses washed clear in the blood of the lord) or modern perceptions of political/historical correctness. To me you've made the classic fatal error of looking for answers to religions mysteries by asking religious men instead of seeking out their detractors and then hunting for your own middle ground. The great thing about throwing Jesus out with the manger straw is that you can always call the tough little bastard back into your life later as a father figure. (if that's what your inner demons dictate)

By all accounts Paul was an extraudinary man but righteous man of God? now there's an oxymoron.

unclebruce

Thomas Poole

Not true.

Your only interested is to discredit the Bible, and the Apostle Paul, my brother in Christ, no matter what is said. If you hate accurate scriptures, you should go elsewhere. You really have no interest in what the man asked. You showed no comprehension of what I said.

Again, when ever there is serious scriptural conversation on this forum, you antichrist types jump in and start cursing and calling names.

Fred, all Christians are anointed [with the Holy Spirit].

wallaby jack

Are you adressing me Mr.Poole?

Perhaps you'd like to provide an understaning of my position better than just calling me a promoter of untruth. You could start by explaining just what Paul was up to in spliting Jesus Nararite Party and usurping James position the way he did.

If i'm speaking out my bum just point out exactly what I've said is so objectionable to your balanced historical view. As for discrediting Paul, his Christ or the bible I am just plumbing the depths and don't care what the rope drags up. You on the other hand appear floundering in the shallows too afraid of getting your preconceptions wet to question what's been served you by biblegeeks and jesus freaks with soul stealing agendas.

Saying I hate 'accurate scriptures' is a joke. You don't know me and as it happens i have a deep respect for all ancient writing sacred or otherwise. Fornicating Popes and pompous priests are another matter entirely.

unclebruce leading a christian to water but not making him think.

PS: You now have me curious to know your definition of an 'inaccurate scripture' .. example please ;)

siegswife

1 Corinthians 13
12Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.[1] All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now.

1 13:12 Greek see face to face.
1 Corinthians 13:12 :: New Living Translation (NLT)

***I think this is saying that no matter what we 'see' now, it is shaped by our limited perspective and perceptions. We can't even see ourselves clearly, let alone see the things of God perfectly.

Thomas Poole

Yes, Siefswife, partially truth.

1 Corinthians 13:12
Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but "THEN" we will see everything with perfect clarity.[1] All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now.
I think this is saying that no matter what we 'see' now, it is shaped by our limited perspective and perceptions. We can't even see ourselves clearly, let alone see the things of God perfectly.

I think it important to know the context of the unclear to the clear.

This has to do with the transition of the new Christian congregation from the things not understood then to the things that would be understood in the near future of their time.

Their input for congregation growth and development was by the use of tongues to communicate in a real languages to foreigners and prophecies to reveal things of God.

Prophecies and the interpretations thereof were direct revelations from God to the young babe-congregation members.

Again, when the full development of the word of God [the canon] came to be, this is when things came to be clear [face-to-face]back then.

Also,

but "THEN" we will see everything with perfect clarity

The word "THEN" is important to understand. The "then" is at the fulfillment [of the canon]of the necessary starting knowledge, understanding, and the initial "tongue" communications.[/quote]Some people take this word "then" to mean the return of Christ. This is not correct.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing; but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. I Corinthians 1:18

In Christ, as the Father would have it.

1 Cor. 13:12

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