Rock concerts, ballgames, and cruise ships are strictly for moneymaking and entertainment, they are totally different than a religious convention, especially one that claims to be "christian", So I can see the "show going on in that instance.
Something else disturbs me about this whole thing, and only one person even touched upon it.
You can guess what I am getting at."
Death of an Elder
by sacolton 56 Replies latest jw friends
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Junction-Guy
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2112
My parents were married for 40 yesrs and when my mother died of cancer my father, who is an elder, was naturally upset. Yet when he was crying in our own home, the PO did say to him that he needs to show more "respect for Jehovah's resurection promise, and be stronger and more supportive of the congregation." Later in private my father would want to cry but would fight his emptions for fear that the "Brothers and Sisters might be stumbled if they say him cry."
I know that everyone does show grief in their own way, however sometimes the reactions of some folks are just not natural. (I know that is a subjective term). The PO mentioned above had a young child, a toddler, and the PO was at home one day and had the child in his care. They had a pool and the child fell in and drowned. The congregation was all sad as you can imagine and for months the mother was a mess. My son was a bit younger that theirs and she got a lot of comfort ant the meetings holding him. Anyway, the father did not seem to care because not two days after the boy drowned and a day befor ethe funeral he went to play and sing with some orter brothers in a local club. And at the funeral was seemed more concerned with why more folks did not go watch them play.
I am an entertainer and I still find this is taking "the show must go" on a bit too far. Especially since he was just jamming with the band as he was not "in the band".
Maybe it was his way of dealing with his loss, but the whole thing did not feel right.
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jamiebowers
The point being that JW's still for the most part feel as much pain as anybody else when losing a loved one. Most are not, cold, heartless robotic humanoids, void of emotion or love, as what was implied by Sacolton.
Then how can they stand to shun their family members and friends, treating them as if they were dead?
Sacolton then posts thye Awake cover and then says:..."Ask yourself ... is the point of this cover to help us grieve these children? Do JW view them as martyrs? Now, who has the twisted thinking about death?"
**** Sorry dude but you have missed the mark several times now. You just don't get it for some reason. People have died on the battlegrounds and received Purple Heart medals in the process. They are recognized as HEROS by those left behind for the very way they might have died. But rest assured, my friend, that many of these same people honoring the deceased, also shed many tears and felt the deepest pain when losing people they once knew and loved.
It is sad that people die as martyrs on the battlefiel, but those people aren't children as the ones who are featured on the cover of the Awake magazine.
Jamiebowers says:.."I don't think lack of sympathetic response on the part of jws is bs. I experienced such as a jw when a dear "worldly" friend of mine died suddenly. The prevailing attitude was, "What are you crying about? At least he'll be in the resurrection". **** I don't believe you. When JW's die, loved ones cry. Nobody ever said or even implied to me we should not cry. I think you are making things up on the fly. They may try not to wail and grieve uncontrollably, but they sure do cry and feel pain and sadness.
I'm certain jws do cry when one of their loved ones die, but the point of this whole thread is their reaction to the grief and pain of others, not their own. Your not believing me is pointless. You did not live my life. I suppose you think I'm lying when an elder told me that at least I'd be guaranteed a spot in the new system if my abusive, mentally unstable jw husband killed me during one of his violent rampages. I also suppose you don't believe that my jw aunt found herself in big trouble when my jw mother reported her to the elders for allowing my df'd cousins to attend a wake for an unbelieving uncle. I don't care if you believe me or not. It is all true.
JamieBowers replies to Changeling quote:.."No one asked for the dc to be canceled, but even at concerts or other events, there is usually an announcement made about what happened." **** More bologna. People die at football stadiums, baseball games and more. The games NEVER get stopped. People fall off cruise ships and more yet the ships continue on. I've heard of people becoming dehydrated and even dying at rock concerts yet the shows go on.
I don't know what kind of concerts and events you attend, but at the ones that I've been to, announcements have been made if it is necessary in order to assist the emergency responders, and I've heard of concerts being halted when craziness such as stampeding has occurred. The cruise ships that continue their journey after someone has gone overboard have been heavily criticized in the media and by law enforcement.
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truthseeker
My own thoughts,
Everyone feels the loss of a family and friends in the organization.
What is seriously lacking or even missing is the importance and value held on the deceased life.
The WT take the view that the "dead are conscious of nothing", therefore why be overly concerned about the deceased?
I have been to a few witness funerals, and honestly, they are just infomercials for the faith, nothing else. A token 5 minutes is given to the life and times of the deceased, but these only give vital statistics and faithful service, not the kind of person they are or their contributions.
I went to the funeral of a JW whose mother had died - there was no respect for the deceased. The noise was deafening. It was like a meeting only a different venue. I observed as the funeral talk ended and the little JWs went on their merry way to whatever theocratic assignement they had been given.
As a group, JWs lack the capacity to respond appropriately to death and the effects of it.
A poster mentioned here that a music concert would not stop just because someone died - true, but a religious meeting which deals wih life, births, deaths and marriages should stop to pause out of respect for the deceased, and because the comunity has suffered a loss.
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caliber
I have been to a few witness funerals, and honestly, they are just infomercials for the faith, nothing else. A token 5 minutes is given to the life and times of the deceased, but these only give vital statistics and faithful service, not the kind of person they are or their contributions
I realize and feel for the personal hurt of many posters here... certainly inward feelings of sorrow and grief
... things left unsaid is of no comfort or help to mourning ones .The very nature of WT, beliefs causes a denial
of death. It undermines the whole concept of "Millions now living will never die" Still we should try to put the
blame where it belongs "the printing company ". The mind control extends even to funeral talks , these
infomercials are layed out by the WT ! The whole mind set is organization over individual.(I feel great sorrow
for this grieving man )
Caliber
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Vinny
It's a busy Monday but time for a few replies.
"What Mary said is true. That JW brother is getting more sympathy and love HERE than he did at the kingdum hall."
**** AND (((THAT))) IS A LOAD OF BULL.
The brother of the deceased was seen crying, people were quoted as being in shock, they cancelled field service and more. None of that happened on THIS THREAD by any of us.
The point being that JW's still for the most part feel as much pain as anybody else when losing a loved one. Most are not, cold, heartless robotic humanoids, void of emotion or love, as what was implied by Sacolton. Yes, they may 'publicly' show it a bit differently. But the love, the pain, the tears are nonetheless there and usually no different than what anybody else in their shoes would be. But what I said was BUll, Mary, you seemed to twist and misapply."
Your broad brush attempts to paint something differently is not going to work. Were you un-emotional as a JW? You know the answer. I was as emotional and caring as a JW as I am now. But based on a set of belief systems that we adopted at the time we were JW's we accepted certain rules and policies (such as how to treat DF'd ones) that come across as less than loving. But in our own minds IT (((WAS LOVING))).
I seriously doubt the elder was trying to give your father an "impatient brushoff" after seeing him upset over the death of his son. -
Mysterious
Everyone can rag on me for this if you want and I don't know the man in question but I would personally rather only one person came out to comfort me. I would find a large group overwhelming and obnoxious. They can send their condolences later but to be swarmed would have been quite undesirable for me if I had been in his position.
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Mary
First of all Vinny, can you please learn to use the quote button? It's the one to the right of the button above. Just high light what you plan to quote and then hit that button. Makes reading a thread much easier.
"What Mary said is true. That JW brother is getting more sympathy and love HERE than he did at the kingdum hall."
**** AND (((THAT))) IS A LOAD OF BULL.
The brother of the deceased was seen crying, people were quoted as being in shock, they cancelled field service and more. None of that happened on THIS THREAD by any of us.Folks, Mary is OUT IN LEFT FIELD. Hey Mary, you should have stayed home on this one. Did folks cry on the JWD Mary?
Did people on JWD stop what they were doing Mary? Did folks on JWD express shock at the death of this person Mary?
You are in outer space somewhere today Mary. It's not just my "perogative" (SIC) here to view it that way. But THEM'S THE FACTS!
Mary is out to lunch on this one.Really. I'm 'out in left field', I'm 'out to lunch' and I'm in 'outer space' eh? Tell me something Vinny: Do you know if all the people at that KH cried? Did they all go over and comfort the elder who just lost his brother? Do you know anything about the situation except for what's been written on here?
Mary continues her rant:..."The initial post said that out of all those that were there at the Hall, only one person went over to try and comfort this brother. Don't give me that crap that it was because they were all 'in shock'. It was this guy's brother---imagine how shocked he was. Are you trying to claim that everyone else there in the KH parking lot was in such a state of shock that they couldn't even walk over to him to give him a hug??"
**** Mary, you are really looking SILLY on this one. This experience was HANDED DOWN to Sacolton by his wife. Do you think ALL THE DETAILS are presented?Um, Sacolton's wife was present you idiot. She has first hand knowledge of what transpired there. You on the other hand were not present, so perhaps you should take Scolton's word at face value as to what transpired instead of deciding that anyone who writes something that you interpret erroneously, is "in outter space."
Perhaps the one consoling him was a very close member. I have seen people grieving and absolutely knew it was not the time for me to go up. But SOMEBODY WAS THERE, AT THAT POINT AND TIME, CONSOLING THIS MAN THAT HAD LOST HIS BROTHER.
Do you get that? Are you really that dense Mary? JW's feel pain. JW's cry. JW's grieve. As the experience ITSELF PROVES.Vinny, did you forget to take your meds this morning or what? I specificially said: "I don't think anyone on here is trying to claim that Witnesses don't feel pain and cry and have emotions when someone dies...."
Which part of that is not sinking in to your pea sized brain? Is English your second language? Which part of that don't you understand???
But JW's (individually) are human beings that just so happen to be part of a destructive cult. And most have no idea about this fact. And you know this. They still feel the pain when losing somebody close. Which is the point of this discussion. Their belief system does help minimize the effects of the pain some, as I already stated twice now, but these folks are not some kind of heartless, emotionless robots lacking in feeling, compassion or even love. They very much do feel and grieve and more. To even attempt to argue this fact is foolish on your part.
Once again, read my lips: "I don't think anyone on here is trying to claim that Witnesses don't feel pain and cry and have emotions when someone dies...."
Why in god's name are you ranting on and on about something that I've already stated that is in agreement with you?? Witnesses DO cry, they DO have emotions and they DO feel the 'sting of death' when someone close to them dies. No one is arguing with that.
Your broad brush attempts to paint something differently is not going to work.
(sigh!) Vinny, I specifically said: ".....Your experience doesn't mean that all Witnesses show love and support when someone dies, anymore than my experience means that every Witness acts like an asshole when someone dies...."
Right there I am showing that I am not attempting to "broad brush" anything. Did you even read what I said? Because I don't know how many way you can interpret it. It's pretty clear.
And I am convinced that this is how most JW's feel today. Most do not like doing the shun thing. My wife and I did not. But we did it because we thought it pleased God and would ultimately bring the one on the receiving end back into the organization where they needed to be to get everlasting life. You seem to have forgotten this. And I believe are not separating the two distinct issues here. It would make a big difference if you did.
It's not two seperate issues because the one directly affects the other.
Mary said: "Oh, so now you're accusing Jamiebowers of lying because it doesn't fit with what you're trying to defend??
***** Yep, I do not believe any JW, at any point and time, in any congo, would tell Jamie Blowers "DO NOT CRY AT ALL" when somebody she knew died. That is a load of bull as well.Isn't it wonderful that someone like Vinny who wasn't even present, can tell that Jamiebowers must be lying about what they experienced first-hand. You must have super-powers Vinny! All-seeing, all-knowing, able to smugly tell someone that they're lying their faces off.
Nobody says the JW's have good skills at anything here. What we are debating is do JW's have the same feelings as non JW's have when people die or other difficult things happen to them.
No, that is not what the issue is and if that is what you think, then perhaps you need to get your head out of your ass, go back and read the thread again. I have already stated over and over again, that the Witnesses' reaction to death---in other words---their coping skills, sucks. You have reaffirmed that in what you said above when you said "Nobody says the JW's have good skills at anything here". So once again I ask: What the hell is your problem?? You're arguing with me over something that I've agreed with you on, yet you cannot seem to grasp that concept and instead are attacking me with absolutely stupid statements like:
"....Hellooooo Mary! Earth to Mary, come in Mary. You make my point for me here. Thank you Mary. (Can I go back to work now?)..."
I seriously doubt the elder was trying to give your father an "impatient brushoff" after seeing him upset over the death of his son.
Once again Vinny, you claim knowledge of an incident that you know NOTHING about. This particular elder was without a doubt, one of the most cold-hearted bastards I ever knew and it wasn't just in this case. That was his general demeanor and I've known him for 30 years. So please don't try telling me that your "doubts" about what he did to my father, are worth anything, because you haven't a frigging clue what you're talking about.
Mary, I respect that you think JW's do not respond to the death of others the way you think they should. After all they do have a different belief system than we do today. But my point that JW's absolutely DO FEEL PAIN AND DO GRIEVE when losing loved ones still stands 100 percent. You have not proven anything otherwise.
Vinny, you'd make a lousy lawyer, because apparently, you can't even decipher when someone's agreeing with you.
Mary says:.."I believe alot of the problem is that Witnesses are trained to always be 'living in the future', instead of the present and therefore, when something major happens in the present, (like death), they're at a loss as to how to cope. They therefore, fall back on the only thing they know: talk about the future resurrection.
**** BOLOGNA and SALAMI!!!
They cry, they feel the pain, they comfort others, they hurt and more. Just read your post about your own father again Mary. You seem to be forgetting that one. You are trying to paint a picture that is just not there Mary. Your assertion that JW's fall back on the "only thing they know: talk about the future resurrection", is laughable and ignorant to the facts Mary. You should be ashamed of yourself here Mary. And you know better than this Mary.Vinny, clearly you're a few bricks short of a load and cannot seem to grasp what is being said. Your foaming-at-the-mouth lunacy is just unbelievable. I don't know how many times I have to say that I agree that Witnesses feel the pain of death like everyone else. In fact I even said that I think death is a double-blow to them, simply because they still believe that we're so close to The End and they won't have to face death. I've experienced death of a family member first hand and lost 3 of my siblings all at a young age, when I was still a Witness. It absolutely sucks and is the worst thing you can live through. So for you to sit there with your elder hat on and tell me that I'm claiming that Witnesses don't grieve, not only shows your ignorance and stupidity, but also your sheer arrogance.
WHAT THIS HOPE AND BELIEF (((DOES NOT DO))) IS TAKE AWAY THE PAIN AND SORROW THAT LOSING A LOVED ONE BRINGS UPON THOSE LEFT BEHIND!!!
That's funny-----My father said those exact same words to the asshole elder who said "Well, you'll see him in the resurrection!!"
If somebody called me on that account I would respect their doing so.
Bullshit. You experienced that first hand and someone comes along, calls you a liar and you'd 'respect that'? Given your insane rant on here when you interpret something as not agreeing with you, I highly doubt you'd "respect" someone calling you a liar with no evidence.
I don't see much point in continuing this debate with someone who can't even seem to understand that no one here is saying that Witnesses don't cry and grieve. It is their reaction to death in a lot of cases that is the problem. I find it incredible that you could have ever been in the position of being an elder and not understand something as simple as this.
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flipper
Interesting thread. Lots of charged emotions here I can see ! All I want to say is my experience of being involved with witness deaths in my 44 years in the cult is yes, some do mourn and cry naturally - but they are taught not to " mourn as the rest do who have no hope " as the scripture put it because of their hope of an "alleged " resurrection which I don't subscribe to . So they get a false sense of security which some in the witnesses use as an excuse to not show caring as they should. Notice I said- some, not all. Some feel, " Oh well, they'll be back in the resurrection so we will see them soon anyway. " And off they go , not mourning as people would in the " world " who apparently have " no hope". But really, how do any of us REALLY know what will happen after we die ? We really don't. Just my 2 cents
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treadnh2o
This is getting stupid!
No one will win this.